Equipment + Artifact Creatures = New Mechanic

Fri, 2007-07-20 19:57
kobalobasileus

Here's a new mechanic I think could be interesting. A "Mecha" subtype of artifact creature that can either act on its own as an artifact creature, or attach to another creature as equipment.

http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/system/files/EVAUnit01.jpg

Edit: Image doesn't seem to want to display.

Here's the text:

EVA Unit 01 (6)
Legendary Artifact Creature--Evangelion Mecha

Counts as Equipment.
Equipped creature’s power and toughness become equal to EVA Unit 01’s, and it gains First strike.
Equip 4 (4: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
If the Equip target is Shinji Ikari, the Equip cost is 0.
First strike (This creature deals combat damage before creatures without first strike.)

5/5

Edit 2: I forgot to mention that I also added a mechanic for variable equip costs, allowing specific Legendary Creatures or types to equip for a lower cost.

Fri, 2007-07-20 20:11
Maglad
Maglad's picture

Argh... I hate it when people just uses characters from anywhere they feel like it... -shivers- Ok, now that I got it out of my system...
Didint they made a short lived Golem creature type? what happened to it? and Evangelion can`t be a creatyre type. I know is the name of the series, but that doesnt means is a creature type. Shinji wouldnt be a "Legendary Creature - Evangelion Human" for example

If we are trying to go with the series, the Equip cost should be to sacrifice a creature, sicne Gendo killed shinji`s mom to get her soul into the EVA 01. Or maybe add it to the casting cost. That would probably work better. I also recommend Rampage as an ability for it. Making it cost 0 to equip in a single especific creature is making it really really yugi oh like (nothing wrong with yugi, on its own) and I just cant like it. Maybe you should add an ability called "Pilot" that allows pilot creature to get equipment attached to them for less than usual.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.anonib.com/fakemtg/index.php?t=11&g=0 <-- The original set

Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.anonib.com/fakemtg/index.php?t=11&g=0 <-- The original set

Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take

Fri, 2007-07-20 22:17
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Except Equipment that's also a creature can't be equiped to a creature.

Why not just do the same thing using imprint or haunt?

Finally "~ counts as a ____" isn't used anymore; you just give it the subtype ____.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183
Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303
Enigma: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/719
Mon, 2007-07-23 18:57
kobalobasileus

@ Maglad
Actually, a friend and I are working on an all-anime set for our own enjoyment. Due to the profusion of mecha in anime, I came up with this mechanic to use with them. EVA Unit 01 just happened to me a random example I chose to post here (because more people would be familiar with it than, say, the Gran Kaiser from Gravion). Its creature type is Evangelion, because that's what they are called in the show; it has nothing to do with the show's title.

Incidentally, Shinji is a "Legendary Creature--Student Pilot."

@ Pichoro
Why can't a creature equip a creature? I was thinking it would work like an artifact version of Licids. Of course, I haven't played Magic in forever (Yu-Gi-Oh is much more enjoyable for me), so my understanding of new rulings is rather weak. I have no idea what Haunt does.

Lastly, I used "Counts as Equipment" simply because "Legendary Artifact Creature--Evangelion Mecha Equipment" won't fit in the text field. Maybe "Mecha" could mean "this artifact creature is also Equipment"?

Mon, 2007-07-23 19:04
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Licids don't work that way. You see, because creatures can't equip creatures, when a Licid becomes an Aura it stops being a creature.

If a creature could equip another creature, you get a pilot and a mecha. The pilot is equipped with the mecha. The pilot attacks with the mecha, and has all of its bonuses from being equipped with it. But then the rules also allow the mecha to attack separately. What kind of sense does that make? And how fair is it? Its not.

There are probably some nasty interactions that are prevented by that rule as well, but I'm unaware of the specifics of them. If you're really curious, you could write an Ask Wizards question about it and see if they answer, or go over to mtgsalvation or the magic forums and ask a judge or rules guru.

As for the type problem, if you follow Maglad's advice and drop the incredibly narrow type "Evangelion", Equipment would fit. Not that it would work under the rules if you did that, though.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint New webpage!
Mon, 2007-07-23 19:38
kobalobasileus

EVA Unit 01 (6)
Legendary Artifact Creature--Evangelion Mecha

(A Mecha is affected by all spells and abilities that affect Equipment.)
Equipped creature’s power and toughness become equal to EVA Unit 01’s, and it gains First strike.
Pilot 4 (4: This card stops being an Artifact Creature and becomes an Artifact—Equipment. Attach to target creature you control. If the Pilot creature is destroyed, this card reverts to an Artifact Creature. Pilot only as a sorcery.)
If the Pilot target is Shinji Ikari, the Pilot cost is 0.
First strike (This creature deals combat damage before creatures without first strike.)

5/5

"Evangelion" may be a narrow creature type, but it's necessary for spells that only affect Angels and Evangelions.

Mon, 2007-07-23 23:39
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

How about this?

Details:
-When you unflip it, it will automatically become a creature, and unattach.
-I split up the subtypes because artifacts and creatures each have their own unique list of subtypes. This is the same reason Tribal is a type, not a supertype.
-I made them both legendary and gave them the same name so the legend rule will apply whether the cards are flipped or not.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint New webpage!
Tue, 2007-07-24 00:16
Idle Muse
Idle Muse's picture

Why not do it the other way around. The way I see it, a pilot climbs into a mecha, rather than putting a mecha on...
This card was partly inspired by a thread on crewing a ship I saw somewhere (can't remember if it was here or elsewhere), and also by Haunt.

You might want to restrict the possible pilots to Pilot creatures though, to avoid possible broken-ness.
I'm not sure the last ability is legal with regard to the current magic rules, but it gets the point across. (Don't you pay the ability cost before targeting?)

Forgive my 10-second-card wording errors.

You might have to add on a last little bit: "If ~ is removed from play, return piloting creature to play" or something similar.

____________________

MSE File & Template Library

Formerly known as Lordpenguin.
Download DraftWithMSE to draft custom MSE sets!

Tue, 2007-07-24 00:26
Bufon
Bufon's picture

It's not forbidden to do so, but like in some leonine creatures, It would be better to put the text on shinji's card like "Piloting the eva unit 01 cost 0 for ~" or something like that
I think it's a good idea to create the pilot creature type.

-English is not my mother language, excuse me for my mistakes.-

-English is not my mother language, excuse me for my mistakes.-

Tue, 2007-07-24 03:06
Shadow Ninja
Shadow Ninja's picture

Just putting this out there
I game up with a name for an old ability
Mount, u know, where u tap a creature and choose not to untap it and as long as it remains tapped, targetted creature gains its abilities, power, and toughness

<<<<<<<<<<<**>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm from "Boot to Your Face"
Academy for troubling Ninjas
<<<<<<<<<<<**>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<<<<<**>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm from "Boot to Your Face"
Academy for troubling Ninjas
<<<<<<<<<<<**>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[url=http://www.animecubed.com/billy/?734

Tue, 2007-07-24 03:24
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

You know, I had another thought I forgot to mention.

I totally don't see why you would ever use this ability, when you can just have both creatures attack separately? Because unless the pilot either really sucks, or has some phenomenal abilities while a mecha is attached to him, when these creatures are together, they really are less than the sum of their parts.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint New webpage!
Tue, 2007-07-24 04:03
Qasur
Qasur's picture

It really does not make much sense to want to spend mana to make a character not as good as just attacking with both of the characters separately as Pichoro had mentioned. It was on my mind too, but I had yet to sign up yet.

Maybe a way to make the "mecha" better, then it would be worth it. I mean, if say, the Eva can't attack unless it's "Piloted", then that would make a lot more sense, considering that the Eva's had to have a pilot (unless for some odd reason with Eva Unit 01.)

Maybe the likes of:

Eva Unit 01
4
Legendary Artifact Creature - Mecha
First Strike
Eva Unit 01 cannot attack unless it has a pilot.
Pilot 4 (4: Attach target pilot to this as a
sorcery. Add the pilots power and toughness to
this creatures.)
Pilot costs 4 less to target Shinji Ikari.
5/5

Tue, 2007-07-24 07:09
kobalobasileus

Thanks for the comments and input, everyone. I will mull-over these ideas.

@Lordpenguin
Yes, I was thinking there needed to be some size restriction on creatures that can pilot a Mecha. I ROFL imagining the B.F.M. or Polar Kraken being stuffed into Unit 01's entry plug!

@Pichoro
Yes, my intent was to use Mechas as protection for creatures with really low stats, to keep them alive in the face of Lightning Bolts, Incinerates, Pyroclasms, suicidal Goblins, and whatnot (I'm sure those cards are so obsolete that nobody uses them anymore). I'll definitely add a size limit to Pilots. I like your idea of making Mechas into flip creatures, only I think it would fit my original idea better if the unflipped form is an artifact creature and the flipped form is an artifact--equipment. Of course, it will be a PITA to make all the dual art.

@Qasur
In my first draft, all Mechas were Defenders. But in Magic, all creatures are controlled by powerful wizards, so I presumed that remote control was an option. Plus many anime Mechas actually have remote control in their respective shows (EVAs have Dummy Plugs, Gravion has the Phantom System, etc.). I also bumped up the power/toughness on all the EVAs in the set (my friend originally made them) because I was running into situations where I either had to make other Mechas really weak so as not to overshadow EVAs (which should rank near the top of the Mecha hierarchy in power/toughness) or situations in which non-giant-robot characters were almost as strong as EVAs or equally as powerful as other Mechas.

Tue, 2007-07-24 17:12
Bufon
Bufon's picture

This little creatures won't be safe of all that, Pilot has, lique equip sorcery speed, and a shock has instant, so I can shock the shinji that's being "attached" to and eva...
Anyway a few moments ago I imagined Roy Focker with an eva suit, XDDDD And now i can't stop laughing!!! IT's too much!!! XDDDDDDD

-English is not my mother language, excuse me for my mistakes.-

-English is not my mother language, excuse me for my mistakes.-

Tue, 2007-07-24 18:11
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Bufon beat me to it. But he's right. If you intend it to be for protecting the Pilot, it ain't gonna work that well at sorcery speed, cause all the stuff you need to worry about is either at instant speed and can happen while you're attaching, or is sorcery speed and will happen on your opponent's turn, forcing you to try to guess when he's gonna blow the playing field to bits. Neither situation is very fun. You can just have them permanently attached I guess. But that's sort of dull as well.

Also, I think you made a mistake in your statement about how you would do the flip cards. You said the you'd make the unflipped side the creature and the flipped side the equipment; that's what I did. You don't want to do it the other way, because then it doesn't have the nice synergy my way does.

My version requires three abilities to make EVA Unit 01 work.
1.) The normal attach ability.
2.) The pilot specific attach ability.
3.) The equipment's ability to unflip (and thus unattach).

If you change it to the other way around, it takes four abilities.
1.) The equipment's flip ability (to get to the creature and unattach).
2.) The creature's unflip ability (to get back to equipment).
3.) The equipment's attach ability.
4.) The equipment's pilot specific attach ability. That's why I set the card up the way I did.

Also, notice that the equipment side doesn't have the subtype Equipment, but Mecha. This seemed appropriate because equipment doesn't seem to fit well to the idea of the mecha.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint New webpage!
Tue, 2007-07-24 20:41
kobalobasileus

So if people just blow up creatures as they're being equipped, how do any regular Artifact--Equipment cards see play? Or do they? The only popular one I know of is Skull Clamp, which is used as a draw engine instead of a buff anyway.

I got a photobucket account so I can share some renders. Here's what I have so far for this particular Mecha and Pilot (once I get the details hammered-out, it will be easy to transfer to other Mecha and Pilots):


(I was really happy to see in another thread that Twan is improving name and type line compression in the next release!)

This is the Enchantment that is really giving me grief and forcing me to do weird things with subtypes:

And this is why I need the Evangelion subtype AND the Mecha subtype:

Tue, 2007-07-24 22:22
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

I think you missed the point of equipment; its not to save creatures, although if it does, that's a plus. The point is to give them other abilities; really very few equipments grant p/t bonuses compared to the ones that grant abilities.

You've also got lots of formatting errors; you should really look some cards up on gatherer to see how things are put together now. You're also trying to put too many abilities on the cards; scale it back and make some simpler cards. This is a common early mistake among amateur Magic designers. Elegance is more valuable in Magic than piling abilities on.

Mass-Produced EVA Series 6
Artifact Creature - Evangelion
Flying, first strike
1: Regenerate ~.
6/6

*Notes: Mass-Procuded EVA Series is WAY too powerful. The cost for this card should be more like 10, or 11, or maybe more...

A-T Field 7
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Angel, Evangelion, or creature equipped by an Evangelion Mecha
Enchanted creature gets +4/+4, gains shroud, and is indestructible.

*Notes: And now I find myself wondering why Angel and Evangelion aren't the same creature type, if they're so closely related. Also, its more like green then colorless.

Shinji Ikari 2WU
Legendary Creature - Pilot Student
4W, T: Search your library for a card named EVA Unit 01 and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
~ costs 0 to pilot EVA Unit 01.
~ gets +1/+1 for each other Pilot in play.
~ is unaffected by instrumentality.
2/2

*Notes: This especially is over-complicated, and probably over-powered as well. The search ability is more blue than white. Also note that when you search your library, you MUST shuffle afterwards; otherwise you could be stacking your deck. You would also normally give the creature a race as well as a class.

Finally, EVA Unit 01 is still having problems; now its the keyword. I don't think it works to say on the unflipped side that if something happens to pilot, you unflip it, because the unflipped side ceases to exist when the flip side is the active side; basically, the flip side and the unflip side can't reference each other, because only one exists at a time. Also, what happens if the piloting creature is removed from the game? Finally, I don't think having Pilot as a subtype AND a keyword is a good idea.


Custom file library for MSE2b: http://pifro.com/mtg/
My custom sets:
The Taint New webpage!
Thu, 2007-07-26 21:55
kobalobasileus

@ Pichoro
Yep! I completely missed the point of equipment. I thought it was intended to be like a reusable creature enchantment. Plenty of old enchantments like Unholy Strength and Holy Armor sprang to mind as examples of enchantments of this type. In looking at equipment in The Gatherer, I have come across plenty that don't do anything besides increase p/t (and some of them quite pitifully... Shuko? WTF?).

Mainly, the overcomplication of the cards I've presented is an attempt to capture the flavor of the characters they're based on (anime tends to be over-the-top). My friend designed all of these Eva cards, and I've tweaked them (if you think I have a lot of formatting errors, you should have seen them before I changed his crazy text to more standardized--though currently obsolete--wordings).

I naturally assumed that I would have some casting costs and ability costs wrong (that's why I'm asking for input). I know White heals, Blue counters, Black plays in the graveyard, Red blows stuff up, and Green is big. I used the basic idea of 1/1 for 1 for these artifact creatures, with a couple abilities thrown on. I suppose the EVA Series could lose First strike, get 4: Regenerate, and an increased cost of 8 to make it more balanced (though still powerful).

Thanks for the text clarifications (esp. on A-T Field). To clarify some of my choices: Angel =/= Evangelion. It would be like saying Goblin == Orc. I'm sticking to my guns on this one. A happy smile I went with colorless for A-T Field for flavor, not rules.

There's my current wording for these. Also at the bottom is Instrumentality. Should Shinji's immunity to this card be a "Protection from ..." effect as I have it now, or something else?





Fri, 2007-07-27 00:52
Qasur
Qasur's picture

First off, I'm a huge fan of EVA, having watched the series in japanese first, then moving to japanese with english subtitles, then moving to english for 1 episode (it was so bad, I went out and bought a complete-series bootleg Hong Kong DVD boxset with english subtitles.)

I'll start card-for-card:

EVA Unit 01- I know you've been having major trouble with this card, as you want it to do a whole lot. You want it to be very important, meaning, you would want it to stand out as a Flagship card. As it looks, I personally do not like it... nothing shines about it... to me.

A flipping creature/equipment makes it interesting in design... plus, on Rares, you can skip the Reminder text (just put it in the Post) as flip cards have little room for words. If they're too tiny, even if a card is good, then it's really hardly stands out. Akroma stands out because of her million abilities, but they aren't cost:effect ones, so she's easier to read.

This is how I would represent the card you're creating... it's a 'shell' of an angel's core, and it was created after Yui Ikari was sacrificed to it.

This is how Pilot is as my reminder text, set to not show (for space reasons.)

Pilot X (X: Flip ~this~ and attach to target Pilot you control. Play ability only as a sorcery.)

Beserking Evangelion - I added this because it's something Eva Unit 01 did many-a-time, and it was that he went "beserk" and operated without a pilot, as well as being quite devastatingly powerful at that. Hopefully this, plus my version of Eva Unit 01 can let you see how I treated "not attacking and blocking" (no pilot) to being allowed to, as in rage.

Shinji Ikari - Well, my problem with Shinji is that he does not exactly "call forth" the Eva unit, in fact, he does not want anything to do with it... plus, he does not want to fight. It's not him. But, when he has to, he'll fight tough, and hard. Which I tried to depict here, on my version of him.

Also, protection does not stop a character from being affected by "world" effects (no pun entended to Intrumentalities World Enchantment), so you would have to world Instrumentality specifically to not kill something/someone (probably choose a creature, since someone has to start the instrumentality process.)

A-T Field - This one is closer in what an A.T. Field does, but if you push all of your cards being designed into "over-powered", then you get too many rares with a lot of abilities. One thing to remember, is that not all AT Fields were used aggresively. Some were used as defense, especially the Angels. They were the main reason Eva's had to be used to kill them, was because they had AT Fields... you had to be able to punch through one (or rip one into pieces as a beserking unit 01 does a few times.)

I demoted this card to an uncommon with a variable ability depending on what type of mana spent to play it, because I would actually see there being a "light side/dark side" theme to Eva, mostly because of it's religious theme... and I'd go anti-climatic, making the evil angels White and the hero Evas black (much like Kamigawa in magic, where Konda was the Villain and Tetsuo Umezawa was the hero.)

Intrumentality - Wow... this card needs some work. Major cost that is game-defining, but just costs too much to ever see play.

I did not make a take on this card because a lot can be done... really, it can be cheap. The card should be White and Black ONLY, as it required Eva + Angel to work, so it incorporates both like and dark sides (as Eva's theme all along.)

Some ideas can be to make it costs 4 or 5 mana, be an enchantment, but have simply requirements like "Only play Instrumentality if you control Eva Unit 01, Spear of Longinus, and an Angel" and you might actually make it an Aura, attaching to the character you don't want to die... meaning, "When this comes into play, destroy all artifacts, lands, and creatures not enchanted with Instrumentality." I mean, there is a lot you can do.

EDIT: Quick take on Instrumentality to me.

Fri, 2007-07-27 21:13
kobalobasileus

@Qasur
My friend actually designed Instrumentality, but my impression of it was that he wanted it to be an uber version of Reality Twist or Naked Singularity that makes everything colorless (like LCL), but without the cumulative upkeep. I'm pretty sure that's why he put blue in the casting cost. I suppose it would make more sense to adjust it like this:

3WB
Instrumentality
World Enchantment

As an additional cost to play Instrumentality, sacrifice an Angel and a card named Lance of Longinus.
When Instrumentality comes into play, destroy all creatures and artifacts in play except creatures named Shinji Ikari or Asuka Langley Soryu and artifacts attached to them. Creatures destroyed by this effect cannot be regenerated.
While Instrumentality is in play, all mana is colorless and all colored mana symbols in costs are treated as 1. All creatures and artifacts come into play tapped and do not untap during their controller’s untap step.

Of course, the reason the cost was so high in the first place was because there are other cards in the set that let you tutor Instrumentality and play it for free:

Gah! Now we're getting completely off-track from my original topic of equipable artifact creatures called Mecha.... Thanks for the input, anyways....

Does anyone know an easy way to share entire MSE-Set files? I could just post the whole Animagic set (that's what my friend named it) in the forum and let people see the whole disaster. Winking smiley

Sat, 2007-07-28 01:23
Qasur
Qasur's picture

Wow. Lilith, Second Angel is pretty powerful... Although Lilith and Rei do combine to complete Instrumentality*, it can almost be said that the card for when Shinji does it be called Third Impact* and resemble the card I was making (which targeting one person, and killed off everything else in play, basically reverting everyone to LCL.)

I would make Instrumentality actually win you the game, but not "play for free from hand or library"... that's some crazy non-sense. This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, you know. One card doesn't just win the game.

It should still require you use only use that ability if Lility, Second Angel, is equipped with the Spear of Loginous. As it's required for Third Impact/Instrumentality either way.

*
(What I mean in reference to Instrumentality and Third Impact are this: The End of the original series sees Rei merge with Lilith, after rejecting Gendo's orders... instead, she goes to all people of the world at one time, and basically gives Shinji total control of what will be done with the primorial soup that Rei+Lilith hold in their hands (all of the beings on earth as a sphere of LCL.) Shinji's flashbacks show him that humans grow by experiecing pain and suffering, instead of rejecting it from their life, and he finally believes in himself instead of thinking he's useless. So, he basically "undoes" what Rei gave him, by allowing him to choose the regular life he leads as the goal of instrumentality, with everyone on earth leading their "normal lives", instead of being reformed into a pain-free, suffer-free world, with a new Adam and Eve, but no tree for which to taint mankind.

In the movie End of Evangelion, Shinji takes all of his pain and suffering, and ends it. He completes Instrumentality be reseting the world, causing the "Third Impact", in which he leaves himself and Asuka as the new Adam and Eve, respectively.)

Mon, 2007-07-30 02:05
kobalobasileus

Qasur said: "This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh, you know."

I personally think Magic could learn a thing or two from YGO. I'm sure nobody here will agree with me, but I enjoy cards that are a little bit "broken" (provided they are limited and used in moderation). I still wish Wizards would reprint the Moxes (and leave them all restricted to 1)!

Anyway, the Instrumentality I presented doesn't "win the game," it just gives its controller one free shot at their opponent with Shinji and/or Asuka, as they won't untap either. It makes the game revolve around Sorceries and Instants instead of creatures and artifacts. There's also a cheap, colorless sorcery in the set called "Rejection" that was designed with the intent of getting rid of Instrumentality. It destroys all enchantments in play.

I urged my friend who has been working on these with me to register here so he can explain what he intended. Of course, he told me that he cares more about peoples' reactions to his "awesome art and flavor text" than actually making playable cards. *shrug*

Sat, 2018-03-10 23:26
shiftyhomunculus
Moderator
shiftyhomunculus's picture

Locking against spambots.

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
formerly thehuw
they/them, please