Lorwyn/Shadowmoor United Community Set

continued...
Wed, 2012-07-04 22:41
ArcAngle

Addendum: All the creature in Lorwyn at common are from the major tribes, plus elementals and shapeshifters.

Have we talked about what class types are going to be used?

Spoiler:

Thu, 2012-07-05 02:28
Guitarweeps
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Only reason I put the Fae as unchanged was if we had them be the central antogonist in the story. Originally, Oona's meddling with the Aurora allowed most of the Fae to remember their previous selves in Shadowmoor unlike most other tribes. I think that Green/blue mana symbol woudl be better though.
I thought that the proposal was for Hags as a tribe not just fillers.

Lastly, the 14 creatures at common was based off of a 286 card set. If we do a normal size, 249, then that number will be closer to 12.

In all honesty, if we want to keep all these tribes then we need to do color matters focus instead of tribal.

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Thu, 2012-07-05 03:08
ArcAngle

That is a good point; With a smaller set, I would change a few creatures into tribal spells even at common just to make room, or count the evokers as sorceries...

Actually, with Retracing creatures, transforming creatures, evoke, and other wackiness, would it be possible to do an all creature set, like Legions?

Spoiler:

Thu, 2012-07-05 11:32
Noahlotr
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Lorwyn and Shadowmoor were both 301 card sets. I know that's not done anymore, but if we're having trouble fitting in everything we need... (I do realize that that would actually be the 286 card set mentioned above.)

And who said Hags were filler?!?

Thu, 2012-07-05 11:49
Decembra
Decembra's picture

I said they were fillers in Lorwyn - Shadowmoor. If they're given tribe status in this set then I'm sorry for any confusion my comment has caused - I actually like making minority creature types expand.

Thu, 2012-07-05 13:12
Styrofoamking
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Scarecrows were pretty sweet.

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Spoiler:

Thu, 2012-07-05 22:02
Timespiraled
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+1 for Scarecrows, 301 card set (I loved these) as well as the previous mechanics I already voted for.

I also like the Tribal separation that was made and I really love it.

I'd totally love to call Scarecrow if we use them, and if not, any unwanted tribes.

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Thu, 2012-07-05 22:53
Guitarweeps
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I think that adding scarecrows to an already packed lineup would be much although i do like the transform idea. I would also point out that most community sets that aim for 250 never get finished so shooting for 300 may be bold. Plus u want the tribal theme to worl and be playable in limited formats; upping the set size doesnt fix the problem except in constructed.

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Sat, 2012-07-07 04:11
ArcAngle

I think we need to create a design skeleton and start figuring out the numbers of card we should have.
I'm suggesting a 229 card set with 100 commons, 50 uncommons, 30 rares, 9 mythic rares and 20 basic lands

At Common: (W/U/B/R/G)
Creatures: 60 (13/11/12/11/13)
Instants: 11 (2/3/2/3/1)
Sorceries: 11 (1/2/3/3/2)
Enchantments: 8 (2/2/1/1/2)
Artifacts: 5
Lands: 5

Also, I think it would be interesting if we have a cycle of creatures that transform when you play creatures that share their type(s).

Spoiler:

Sat, 2012-07-21 13:00
Noahlotr
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Wakey Wakey Eggs And Bakey!

Deepfathom Channeldiver 1 mana symbolGreen/blue mana symbolGreen/blue mana symbol
Creature - Merfolk Rogue Uncommon
Islandwalk
Whenever Deepfathom Channeldiver and two or more other Merfolk creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, you may pay 1 mana symbolWhite/blue mana symbol. If you do, transform it.
2/2
///
Champion of Deepfathom
White/blue mana symbol Creature - Merfolk Rogue Uncommon
Islandwalk
Other Merfolk you control get +2/+1 and have islandwalk.
4/2

Grungesling Boggart 2 mana symbolBlack/red mana symbolBlack/red mana symbol
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Red mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a land: Grungesling Boggart deals 2 damage to target creature.
Black mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a creature: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
Whenever a creature dies, untap Grungesling Boggart.
2/2

Sat, 2012-07-21 13:20
Guitarweeps
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Boggart is way to good!

Should we use the untap symbol in this set?

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Sat, 2012-07-21 14:25
sommbsnph

Kithkin: Wg to Wr
Merfolk: Uw to Ug
Fae: Ub to Ub
Boggarts: Br to Rg
Flamekin: Rgwub to Rb
Giants: Rw to Rg
Elves: Gu to Gw
Treefolk: Gwb to Gb

DFC's do not have to be using both the Lorwyn and Shadowmoor side.

Energetic Flamekin [mr][mr][mw]
Creature - Elemental Shaman
First Strike
Other Elementals you control get +1/+1
[mg][mr]: Transform ~. Activate this ability only if an opponent was dealt combat damage by 2 or more elementals this turn.
3/1

Flamekin Firemystic ([mrgw])
Creature - Elemental Shaman
First Strike
Other Elemental Creatures you control get +2/+1 and have First Strike
When an opponent is dealt combat damage by an Elemental put a 2/1 Elemental Shaman Creature token into play.

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Sat, 2012-07-21 14:31
sommbsnph

354 Card Set oh yea
140 Commons
84 Uncommons
70 Rares
28 Mythics
32 Basic Lands

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Sat, 2012-07-21 16:38
Noahlotr
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@Guitarweeps: Yeah, I though the Boggart was probably too strong. Do you have any balancing ideas?

Sat, 2012-07-21 22:17
Inanimate
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Don't make it untap. Simple as that. Those abilities are already quite powerful removal as-is. I would also make the red one hit players instead of creatures.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 13:04
Noahlotr
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Good deal:

Grungesling Boggart 2 mana symbolBlack/red mana symbolBlack/red mana symbol
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Red mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a land: Grungesling Boggart deals 2 damage to target player.
Black mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a creature: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
2/2

Sun, 2012-07-22 13:05
sommbsnph

That Boggart is underpowered now it used to be fine but now its terrible.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 13:12
Noahlotr
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Why do you say that, sommbsnph? No offense, but I know Guitarweeps and Inanimate to be experienced card designers, so I believe that their suggestions on balancing should be followed. Of course, if the card really is underpowered now, please tell me how so, so I may implement changes.

Sun, 2012-07-22 13:20
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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I actually also think the Boggart is fine now. First up having both abilities target creatures at first is quite useless so the new "first only at players, second at creatures" is a lot better. You can argue about the untap-clause, sure, but since using the second ability would always trigger it anyway, it really should go away..

Sun, 2012-07-22 13:21
Guitarweeps
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It turns every land you don't need into 2 damage and is repeatable removal. In constructed it may not be too exciting just cause it is easy to kill, but it could still see play just because of its versatility. In limited it would be a first pick everytime. You could maybe get away with 3 CMC on it though.

Also Channeldiver is strange. I think it would be better to reduce the power level and just have the trigger when it deals damage. The other Merfolk requirement jsut doesn't seem right. Just make it +1/+1. Also, we should probably decide how we want to do the "lords" should they all transform? Not transform? Or be loose and do different things?

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Sun, 2012-07-22 13:27
sommbsnph

Ive designed about 7 50 Card Sets before.

That Boggart does not excite me in either version and I love undercosted creatures.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 13:52
Daij_Djan
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Undercosted creatures can be fine (CMC 3 for the Boggarts seems to be the way to go, actually), but having both abilities only target creatures and / or having one of them always triggering the untap clause simply looks bad, imho..

Sun, 2012-07-22 13:55
sommbsnph

3cmc is fine for the original version
New version needs 2 cmc to be good.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 13:59
Noahlotr
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Grungesling Boggart 1 mana symbolBlack/red mana symbolBlack/red mana symbol
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Red mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a land: Grungesling Boggart deals 2 damage to target player.
Black mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a creature: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
2/2

Deepfathom Channeldiver 1 mana symbolGreen/blue mana symbolGreen/blue mana symbol
Creature - Merfolk Rogue Uncommon
Islandwalk
Whenever Deepfathom Channeldiver deals combat damage to a player, you may pay 1 mana symbolWhite/blue mana symbol. If you do, transform it.
2/2
///
Champion of Deepfathom
White/blue mana symbol Creature - Merfolk Rogue Uncommon
Islandwalk
Other Merfolk you control get +1/+1 and have islandwalk.
4/2

Sun, 2012-07-22 14:08
sommbsnph

Grungesling Boggart :1colorless: :black/red: :black/red:
Creature - Goblin Shaman Red mana symbol
Red mana symbolTap symbolSacrifice a land: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Black mana symbolTap symbolSacrifice a creature: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
Whenever a creature dies untap ~.
2/2

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Sun, 2012-07-22 14:35
Daij_Djan
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About Grungesling Boggart: Not talking about power level problems, but my inner Melvin (I hope it was Melvin which cared about the non-story but mechanical- and card-aligned flavor) really preferes Noahlotr's version - resons stated above.

About Deepfathom Channeldiver: Seems fine. The way, Merfolk lords are pushed it could be a CMC2 rare but at uncommon CMC3 is obviously better. I only feel having Green/blue mana symbol in the casting cost and White/blue mana symbol for the ability looks a little weird - but that could easily just be me.

Sun, 2012-07-22 14:48
Guitarweeps
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Actually, I think Deepfathom doesn't need another cost. I think just dealing damage is enough to transform, but only if it stayed 2/2 or maybe 3/2. It feels weird to add white and then it becomes a 4/2.

Boggart - Not every card needs to be Titan level excitement. A card like this should be carefully designed due to limited. Honestly, it could cost 5 mana and be amazing in limited. The reason I say that is there was an uncommon a few sets back that was CMC 5 and you could Tap symbol and sac a creature to do two damage. It was a first pick over even the rares in draft everytime because of the power level in the limited environment. I can't remember the name or which set it was right now.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 14:55
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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You propably mean Skirsdag Cultist - and agreement about the titan-level clause (I'm so glad they finally disapear) - although I have to admit rares are rarely ( Stick out your tongue ) designed to work in Limited so being stronger than the Cultist should be fine..

Sun, 2012-07-22 14:56
sommbsnph

The Titans were innocent cards that kept ramp deck from being flat out unplayable Wurmcoil Engine had the same purpose.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 14:57
sommbsnph

The Titans deserve a place to shine in a Manaleakless Environment.

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Sun, 2012-07-22 15:03
Daij_Djan
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To me the Titans simply made any other CMC6 creature suck - except for the blue one due to Consecrated Sphinx - since they were so high about the power curve than anything else, that's why I don't like them (although I do really like Ramp-style decks)

EDIT: And I really like Mana Leak, even though I actually don't even play counter-aligned control decks - and I laughed really hard about the official article saying Cavern of Souls (a card I don't like not because it hoses counters but because the "uncounterable"-clause feels to chunky and patched on) had to be printed because of Mana Leak..

Sun, 2012-07-22 15:33
Guitarweeps
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Actually it was Hatchet Bully I was thinking of but was still a little off in my description.

Didn't mean to start a titan debate lol (When Titans came out there was no Mana Leak). I just said that because sommbsnph mentioned the card didn't excite him. Not every card has to. And with how much impact it has for limited I don't think it is the type of card that needs to be outright exciting on first look.

Boggart could be CMC 2 but I don't know if that means we should. I think the saccing land part is quite relevant. Is the point of the design to be a limited powerhouse with potential or something to impact the metagame? I think that the land saccing part on a CMC 2 would actually be built around and used. Again, it isn't OP but quite relevant at that point. At CMC 3 I don't think that it is accurate to say it sucks though.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 22:04
Timespiraled
Timespiraled's picture

Hey guys, just going to throw my 2 cents in here.

I say the Grungesling Boggart is fine in the following form.

Grungesling Boggart 1 mana symbolBlack/red mana symbolBlack/red mana symbol
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Red mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a land: Grungesling Boggart deals 2 damage to target player.
Black mana symbol, Tap symbol, sacrifice a creature: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
2/2
Red mana symbol

For these reasons:

- Repeatable player burn, fair costed (3 CMC for a 2/2 with abilities), repeatable -2/-2, triggers anything with "whenever a creature dies" (most likely twice), portrays red and black perfectly, a bomb in limited, etc.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 22:10
Inanimate
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Agreed. 4CMC, in retrospect, was too high.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 22:18
Timespiraled
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Also, think really hard. If I picked this in a booster, playing these colors, would I take it? I can't think of a reason not to so there.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 22:53
sommbsnph

I fail to see why anyone would include the Boggart outside of B/x token decks.

Kithkin: Wg to Wr
Merfolk: Uw to Ug
Fae: Ub to Ub
Boggarts: Br to Rg
Flamekin: Rgwub to Br
Giants: Rw to Rg
Elves: Gr to Gw
Treefolk: Gwb to Gb

This is the Tribes Im using.

Kinsbale Guard 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature - Kithkin Soldier Red mana symbol
Other Kithkin Creatures you control get +1/+1.
Green mana symbolTap symbol: Put a 1/1 White Kithkin Creature token into play.
At the beggining of your upkeep, if you were attacked by 2 or more Creatures last turn you may transform ~.
2/2

Kinsbale Vengeant (White mana symbol)
Creature - Kithkin Knight Red mana symbol
Other Kithkin Creatures you control get +2/+1.
Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolTap symbol: Kithkin Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have First Strike until your next upkeep.
2/2

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:06
sommbsnph

The idea im having is:

Take Kithkin as an Example

Wg Kithkin Decks would be Playable but not great.

Wr Kithkin Decks would be Playable but not great.

Wgr Kithkin Decks would be Ideal.

The Kithkin Land
Land
Lorwyn Drawback here
Tap symbol: add White mana symbol to your mana pool. Put a charge Counter on ~.
Tap symbol: add Green mana symbol or Red mana symbol to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if ~ has a charge counter on it.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:07
Timespiraled
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You do have some nice ideas. (Try not to double post though, some people dont like it)

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:08
sommbsnph

I do not like it when people edit their posts.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:11
sommbsnph

I find it hard to keep track of edited posts especially here.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:41
Timespiraled
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I usually do this if I've edited.

EDIT 7h40, July 23rd: See?

EDIT 7h41, July 23rd: Etc.

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:52
sommbsnph

Lots of times I never really end up seeing posts after edit with my reading methods on these forums

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Mon, 2012-07-23 23:59
Noahlotr
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Okay, this conversation is really irrelevant. Also, we kinda already have colors for the tribes. (See first post.)

Your Kithkin land would, in this set, would be:

The Kithkin Land
Land Rare
Lorwyn Drawback here
Tap symbol: add White mana symbol to your mana pool. Put a charge Counter on ~.
Tap symbol: add Blue mana symbol or Black mana symbol to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if ~ has a charge counter on it.

Your idea for the lands are cool though. I think we'll probably do that for the land cycle.

Tue, 2012-07-24 00:19
Inanimate
Inanimate's picture

Yes, but it's significantly more annoying to read three posts in a row that are each a sentence long, or revisions of the same card, or whatever.

Also, seeing the Kithkin land gave me an idea; going from ally to enemy, or enemy to ally, during the night for each tribe.

I'm going to edit my musings into here, so you can see my thought process.

For ten tribes (which is what we're going with, if I remember correctly), we're going to need ten transitions. To facilitate the thinking of "ally to enemy", I can just use the shards/wedges, which naturally have a built in transition from ally to enemy.

Here are the charts for each:

SHARDS
ESPER: White mana symbolBlue mana symbol to White mana symbolBlack mana symbol
GRIXIS: Blue mana symbolBlack mana symbol to Blue mana symbolRed mana symbol
JUND: Black mana symbolRed mana symbol to Black mana symbolGreen mana symbol
NAYA: Red mana symbolGreen mana symbol to Red mana symbolWhite mana symbol
BANT: Green mana symbolWhite mana symbol to White mana symbolBlue mana symbol

WEDGES
WRB: White mana symbolRed mana symbol to Red mana symbolBlack mana symbol
URG: Blue mana symbolRed mana symbol to Red mana symbolGreen mana symbol
BWG: Black mana symbolWhite mana symbol to White mana symbolGreen mana symbol
RWU: Red mana symbolBlue mana symbol to White mana symbolBlue mana symbol
GUB: Green mana symbolBlue mana symbol to Blue mana symbolBlack mana symbol

This isn't exactly balanced, and is actually a lot trickier to fit than what we currently have. So uh, maybe this was a bad idea. Still, this could be useful to someone in the future. Stick out your tongue

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Tue, 2012-07-24 00:03
sommbsnph

One flaw with Black Kithkin: Kithkin never made others suffer but they once did act like the other tribes "did not exist".

Also read my color changes suggestion, thats the colors im using.

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Tue, 2012-07-24 00:07
Noahlotr
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sommbsnph, this is a community set. If one member is using different colors than the rest, then those cards will not have a place in the set. If you wish to create your own Lowyn/Shadowmoor set with those colors, feel free, but if you want to work in a community set, please use the set colors.

Tue, 2012-07-24 00:12
sommbsnph

For the Faeries we should make a new card that does the same exact thing as secluded glen.

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Tue, 2012-07-24 00:20
Inanimate
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Just for the record: I think the day/night sides should all be balanced evenly between all the colors pairs, and in fact, a cool way to different day/night in this set would be to allow both sides to be cast... representing the 'unity' of Lor/Sha's two sides?

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Tue, 2012-07-24 03:25
Guitarweeps
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Maybe a keyword to cast it transformed?

And no double posts. It is in the forum rules.

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Tue, 2012-07-24 21:39
sommbsnph

Kithkin: Wg to Wr
Merfolk: Uw to Ug
Fae: Ub to Ub
Boggarts: Br to Rg
Flamekin: Rgwub to Br
Giants: Rw to Rg
Elves: Gr to Gw
Treefolk: Gwb to Gb

Day: 6/5/5/6/6
Night: 3/4/4/6/6
Total: 9/9/9/12/12

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