Features locked for the next version?

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Fri, 2006-12-22 20:26
Viperion

Hi folks,

Does anyone know if the features of MSE 0.3 (or whatever the next big version will be) has been feature locked or if the author(s) are still accepting submissions? I have a couple, both for the "stats" area:

1) In the "Card Color" section, make the "Black" column black, and the "Green" column green, and so on A happy smile Not a huge change but it would make looking at the screen a lot more intuitive. The rainbow colours could stay for land/multicolour/artifact (although you could make artifacts grey)

2) In the "Casting Cost" section it gets very very crowded very quickly; is this really useful for anything? I suggest replacing it with (or adding) a "Converted Mana Cost" stat page which would only total the CMC of the cards, and so would result in a cleaner graph which would have only columns 0, 1, 2, 3,.... and so on.

Just a couple of suggestions,

Viperion

Fri, 2006-12-22 22:12
Twan
Site and Project Owner
Twan's picture

1. That has always been the plan, I'll see what I can do.

2. This is not possible in the current version. Fortunatly next version has no problem with it so I added CMC.

Wed, 2007-01-03 16:43
NakutaGuildmage

1. Old template (pre-8th) without the purple symbol with options to make all rarities black (pre-Exodus) and only have the purple symbol (timeshifted).
2. This probably won't be a problem, but just in case you finish 3.0 before the PC prerelease, hold the release back until the Planeshited templates are known to avoid a quick adition.
3. I know this may sound strange, but I'm making a set that will have timeshifted cards from Kamigawa. In order to give these cards a retro feel, I'll be using the pre-8th templates. That brigs me to my requesting a pre-8th flip template

Wed, 2007-01-03 19:51
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Why would you want a template specifically without the purple symbol? Just cause it's there doesn't mean you have to use it.

A set or styling option to make all rarities black, I could understand.

To do pre-8th flips, someone has to generate the frames to start with.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
Sat, 2007-02-03 21:26
58thAirborne

With the recent change in policy (to include the reminder for all non-Core Set abilities on the card) at Wizards. I think you should separate the keywords into "Core Set" and "Expansion Set" categories and change the "Only Custom Keywords" choice in styling to "Non-core Keywords Only".

Sun, 2007-02-04 01:08
coppro
Administrator
coppro's picture

Well, it's only because of the Time Spiral reusing old mechanics that are 3 or more years old. The old policy still stands (using reminder text for core sets, or new mechanics). For instance, equipment in PC will probably not have reminder text.

Currently I think that making everything work would be more important than this anyway. But it's worth thinking about, even if only for organization purposes.

Sun, 2007-02-04 02:25
58thAirborne

You're talking to some one who owns PC cards and uses the gatherer. PC searches: Kicker Flash Madness Suspend

Sun, 2007-02-04 03:25
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Not to be rude, but I fail to see the point of what you're arguing.

Kicker, Flash, Madness, Morph, Split Second, Flashback, Shadow, and Suspend are all TSP Block keywords. The fact that they're not all new changes nothing.

Do you own any Onslaught cards? If you do, you should realize that if you look at them Cycling has reminder text. But its not new? That's right, its not; its just an expansion keyword. Re-used keywords can be expansion keywords. The current method of differentiating which keywords get reminder text is fine, nothing changed with Time Spiral.

Suggestions for fixing your problem:

1.) If you intend to use a non-core keyword in your set and want the reminder text to be automatic, re-type it in your custom keywords tab. This has the added benefit of allowing others to instantly know when you're using one of these keywords if you put your set file up for download.

2.) If you don't care if its automatic or not, just go through and right click on every instance of the keyword and then click "Show Reminder Text" or "Use Reminder Text" or something to that effect.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.
Sun, 2007-02-04 15:46
58thAirborne

points taken. I thought they removed the reminder after the original appearance. I'd like to see the ability to type the actual ability, for example, "Protection" to get the ability string, using the same example, "Protection from <param>".

Sun, 2007-02-04 17:37
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

I don't follow what you're asking for, but I've got a couple ideas.

First, if you're wanting to type it and not have reminder text popup, I would ask if you realize that the only times Protection (or any other word for that matter) should be capitalized is if they're at the beginning of a sentence or the beginning of a line of keywords (which aren't actually sentences because they have no ending punctuation).

Second, if you're asking why you have to type "Protection from" instead of "Protection", its because we've never made a separate separator just for the word "from", which is the same reason you type "Affinity for" instead of "Affinity". See, all keywords with parameters have separators too, and these are things like "whitespaces", colons, dashes... So to make a "from" separator just for protection seemed kinda silly, probably. So that's why we have "Protection from".


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Mon, 2007-02-05 00:15
58thAirborne

Here's what I'm suggesting:

keyword:
	keyword: Protection
	<kw text>: Protection from
	separator: whitespace [ ] 
	parameter: name
	reminder: This creature can’t be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by anything <param>.

Mon, 2007-02-05 15:29
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

I don't know of anyway to do that. Atleast not a reasonable way. What's wrong with "Protection from"?


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Mon, 2007-02-05 16:38
Twan
Site and Project Owner
Twan's picture

The keyword system I am planing for the next version will be something like this: keyword: keyword: Protection expansion: match: Protection from <param1> mode: core parameter: name reminder: This creature can’t be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by anything {param1}. The idea is to allow full flexibility in what the keyword looks like. A keyword can have multiple 'expansions', for different ways in which the keyword can be used. I am not sure how I will deal with separators, especially em-dashes, because they are hard to type. Maybe there could be multiple "match:" declarations, and the first one determines what is put on the card. Also notice the "mode: core", this will (hopefully) be used to allow you to select for which keywords reminder text is shown. Finally, reminder text will allow scripts (in this case just {param1}) to be used, so it could for instance be {to_upper(param1)} to show the parameter as upper case text.

This is currently all just in the planning phase.

Edit: The < got eaten

Mon, 2007-02-05 21:15
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Well, you'll obviously need two separators for things like suspend to work. And for em-dashes, I would say take the longdash replacement rule out of mana context or whereever its buried in the version you download, and just stick it in the text_filter script. That way anytime you type "--" you get a longdash, no muss no fuss. That's how I edit all of mine to work anyway.

The bigger concern (I think) is whether or not this system will allow for whitespace separators for mana cost parameters, and longdash separators for alternative costs. And then, when an alternative cost is used, building in features to make it process the cost for use in the reminder text (decaptialize it, remove period from the end...).


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Mon, 2007-02-05 22:03
coppro
Administrator
coppro's picture

Unless I'm mistaken, it could be done using expression captures in the regex. So, Vanishing might be written as:

keyword: Vanishing
	match: [Vv]anishing (?([0-9]*) )?
	mode: expansion
	reminder:
		rm := ""
		if (parama) then rm = rm + "This permanent comes into play with " + num_to_text(param1) + " time counters on it. "
		rm = rm + "At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from "
		if (parama) then rm = rm + "it"
		else rm = rm + "this permanent"
		rm = rm + ". When the last time counter is removed from it, sacrifice it."

It's a bit harder, but it is highly flexible and scriptable. Note that reminder is a script, and that match is a regular expression. For those who don't know, a parenthesis without the question mark immediately following causes it not to capture, but the one without the question mark does capture. So this regular expression means it must say vanishing or Vanishing, followed by a space and optionally a number, and if there's a number it must have another space. The number is remembered for keyword reminder text.

Mon, 2007-02-05 22:23
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

It'd be nice to have it work, but this would have the added downside of making it naturally harder for users to make their own custom keywords. I mean, just right off the top of my head, that looks like a pile of gunk. No offense, it's just too complicated. BunnieRein's system was pushing the complication limit, I think. This would just blow it away.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Mon, 2007-02-05 22:28
Twan
Site and Project Owner
Twan's picture

Quote:
Well, you'll obviously need two separators for things like suspend to work.

The &lt; got eaten by the forum software, so you could not see the entire thing. Multiple separators should not be a problem.

Quote:
And for em-dashes, I would say take the longdash replacement rule out of mana context or whereever its buried in the version you download, and just stick it in the text_filter script. That way anytime you type "--" you get a longdash, no muss no fuss. That's how I edit all of mine to work anyway.

That is a good idea, but I am not sure if it is obvious enough. How will the avarage user now he has to type -- to get keywords to work as expected.

Quote:
The bigger concern (I think) is whether or not this system will allow for whitespace separators for mana cost parameters, and longdash separators for alternative costs.

There are two ways this could be done:
1. have two expansions of the same keyword
2. have a "name-or-mana" parameter type which includes the separator in the parameter, so it is something like "( [WUBRG]+)|( - [a-z]+)". This is probably already possible in the current system by the way.
I think the second approach should be prefered, because the parameter type is just one place that has to be adjusted as opposed to every keyword.

Quote:
And then, when an alternative cost is used, building in features to make it process the cost for use in the reminder text (decaptialize it, remove period from the end...).

The reminder text will allow all the features of the scripting engine (hopefully with a simple interface), so you could write a function that cleans up the parameters.

coppro: I think that having a separate regex for each keyword would be a nightmere to maintain. The system I am proposing is slightly higher level, but behind the scene it will be the same thing. So "Vanishing <number>" would be translated into a regex "Vanishing ([0-9])", perheps case insensitive if that is specified. (Maybe there will be a single regex for all keywords combined).
The example you are giving is probably a lot easier to understand if you don't mix two different uses of the keyword. That is what the expansions are for.

Mon, 2007-02-05 22:53
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Well, as for making the "--" equals em-dash obvious to the average user, that could just come from better documentation. I mean, by the same coin, how does a new user know that |W = a half white mana? There are other replacement rules I've been building in that I think are a good idea, by the way. For instance TM = trademark symbol, Cright = copyright symbol, and AE = Æ. So these are all done with the idea that they are commonly used symbols on Magic cards, but that don't have quickly accessible keys on a keyboard, so you put in replacement effects to make them more accessible, rather than some of the workarounds people have come up with.

Anyway, it sounds like you've really thought this keyword system out, which is great. It'd be awesome to have one that works right according to formatting standards AND is user friendly.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Mon, 2007-02-05 23:46
coppro
Administrator
coppro's picture

How come I can't edit my posts?

Anyway, the example I gave was a really bad place to use programmers conservationalism. It could have been just as easy to write it as script that made a whole lot more sense. I just wrote it in the smallest space possible.

And I guess that the best reason for the way you intend to do it is for the actual interface in the program.

Tue, 2007-02-06 04:07
Kazagistar
Kazagistar's picture

You can't edit posts that people have replied to, unless its the first one, to prevent abuse. I think this is a crummy way to do things, but it certainly does have it's advantages for mods.

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Thu, 2007-02-08 01:54
BunnieRein
BunnieRein's picture

Letsee... if I wanted to type up a unique multiple param keyword.
Using my system and one of the more complicated keywords wizard has given us:
<seg0><param></seg0>Rather than play this card from your hand,<iscc> you may</iscc> pay <seg2><param></seg2> and remove it from the game with <seg1><param></seg1> time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost.<ispt> It has haste.</ispt>

Letsee... if I wanted to write this easier with what twan has shown if I understood it correctly:

Rather than play this card from your hand,{iscc(" you may")} pay {param2} and remove it from the game with {text(param1)} time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost.{ispt(" It has haste.")}

This would be with a single automatic mode.
Or if I was going to use multiple modes to do this:

Mode 1, Core:
Rather than play this card from your hand, you may pay {param2} and remove it from the game with {text(param1)} time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost.

Mode 2, NoCC:

Rather than play this card from your hand, pay {param2} and remove it from the game with {text(param1)} time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost.

Mode 3, Creature:
Rather than play this card from your hand, you may pay {param2} and remove it from the game with {text(param1)} time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost. It has haste.

Mode 4, Creature NoCC:
Rather than play this card from your hand, pay {param2} and remove it from the game with {text(param1)} time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost. It has haste.

ew... modes doesn't make this elegant... though it does give different ways to do the same thing which is good for end users.
How would this look in the GUI though to determine multiple params? Cause the param types are obviously different.
Each mode should be able to do each param differently.

I will look at kicker.
My way:
<seg0><param></seg0>You may <seg1>pay an additional <param></seg1><seg2><param></seg2> as you play this spell.

Twans idea:
Mode 1: Mana
You may pay an additional {param1} as you play this spell.

Mode 2: Action
You may {fix(param1)} as you play this spell.

The fix() would need to cut off the period at the end of the input and lower case the first letter, but not the entire thing.
This looks as though it would make it look cleaner.

You could try allowing the program/user to set the over all type the variable is first, and then they can edit from there.
For example, they could either set it as Normal, Multiple Keywords (suspend), Multiple Actions (kicker), or... whatever splice onto would be (weird multiple keywords).
Aside, I just had an interesting script idea while writing this post, I shall work on this.

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Thu, 2007-02-08 03:19
Twan
Site and Project Owner
Twan's picture

(minor note: What I mean by modes is something different. What you are talking about I call 'expansions'. Modes are 'tags' for a keyword, for example the user could select that reminder text is not shown for 'core' keywords, keywords from the core set.)

Your second example could still be pretty clear with a single expansion:

You may pay {if is_mana(param1) then "an additional"}{param1} as you play this spell.

I am not sure if multiple modes are needed at all. They are only useful if you have a different number of parameters, I guess.

Quote:
How would this look in the GUI though to determine multiple params? Cause the param types are obviously different.

My idea was that the user selects a single expansion to work on.
This should give you an idea (don't mind the silly keywords):

Thu, 2007-02-08 08:21
BunnieRein
BunnieRein's picture

Ok, I think I understand.
What's the benefit of making "Protection from" on one part and just "Protection" as the keyword?
How would this type into the card?
The user would type Protection into a card and what appears?
How do you handle different separators?

If you do the coloring, that would be extremely helpful.

Custom File Library:
http://mtg.pifro.com/

Thu, 2007-02-08 15:17
58thAirborne

BunnieRein wrote:
What's the benefit of making "Protection from" on one part and just "Protection" as the keyword?
The user would type Protection into a card and what appears?

1. Accuracy
3. How it's written, "Protection from".

I'm trying to update mine to the new system for vanishing to work. what changes need made to the game file before the keywords section to make it work?

Thu, 2007-02-08 15:35
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Vanishing should require no modifications. It is one of the few keywords that will work perfectly under the old system, once you choose the correct number parameter.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Thu, 2007-02-08 17:27
58thAirborne

Actually, it won't work right. Here's why:

CompRules wrote:
502.60. Vanishing

502.60a Vanishing is a keyword that represents three abilities. “Vanishing N” means “This permanent comes into play with N time counters on it,” “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent has a time counter on it, remove a time counter from it,” and “When the last time counter is removed from this permanent, sacrifice it.”

502.60b Vanishing without a number means “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent has a time counter on it, remove a time counter from it” and “When the last time counter is removed from this permanent, sacrifice it.”

502.60c If a permanent has multiple instances of vanishing, each works separately.

Thu, 2007-02-08 17:30
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

That doesn't matter, you'd only have a card with "Vanishing" and no number if you have a card that grants vanishing.

Do this:
keyword name: Vanishing
separator: whitespace [ ]
paramter: number (the one that has an "a" in it in place of "one")
reminder: This permanent comes into play with <param> time counter(s) on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.

There, that's reminder text taken straight off of Calciderm, and will work perfectly.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.
Fri, 2007-02-09 09:24
BunnieRein
BunnieRein's picture

I see no accuracy benefit from this, they are functionally the same.
I'm also asking about exact happenings. Every event, I really do not see a benefit of having "Protection" over "Protection from"

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Fri, 2007-02-23 00:27
coppro
Administrator
coppro's picture

I don't think he was aiming for a specific keyword - it was just a mockup. It was "Protection from 2W - red".

Sat, 2007-03-10 19:26
58thAirborne

I'd like it to scale the overflow on the name and type lines down whenever it reaches symbol (type line) or mana cost (name line) to avoid the scrunching effect, which doesn't happen on real cards, (ex, scaling: 16-->12-->10-->8). Speaking of the mana cost, I think that box needs to lengthen when more than three symbols are entered.

Sun, 2007-03-11 02:59
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Can you cite a card that has its title scaled down rather than scrunched, to be viewed as an example please? I can't think of any now. Also, the problem with having the mana cost box lengthen is that if you do so, it will expand into the title box.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Sun, 2007-03-11 08:55
The Butt
The Butt's picture

Pichoro wrote:
Can you cite a card that has its title scaled down rather than scrunched, to be viewed as an example please? I can't think of any now. Also, the problem with having the mana cost box lengthen is that if you do so, it will expand into the title box.

The type lines on Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Jolrael, Empress of Beasts have the text scaled down rather than horizontally scrunched.
______________________________
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I'm Buttock1234 on the MSE Custom Script boards, the Wizards boards, the herzeleid.com boards, as well as the black-sabbath boards.

Sun, 2007-03-11 15:07
58thAirborne

Pichoro wrote:
The problem with having the mana cost box lengthen is that if you do so, it will expand into the title box.

Not if it stretches towards the name.

Pichoro wrote:
keyword name: Vanishing
separator: whitespace [ ]
paramter: number (the one that has an "a" in it in place of "one")
reminder: This permanent comes into play with <param> time counter(s) on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.

What about cards like Aeon Chronicler, which leave out the first sentence?

Sun, 2007-03-11 17:10
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Okay, Jaya and Jolrael are examples then. Thank you.

I don't see what you're saying about the mana box. It can be made to expand based on how many characters are in it (my crappy post 8th tokens already do that to allow the namebox to grow based on the number of characters in the name). But if you have the mana cost box stretch to the left, it WILL grow into the card name box eventually. I don't think having those two overlap intentionally is a good idea.

And I also don't see what you're saying about Aeon Chronicler leaving off the first sentence of Vanishing; it doesn't have Vanishing at all.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.
Sun, 2007-03-11 20:12
The Butt
The Butt's picture

I think he means Tidewalker. The first sentence in the vanishing reminder text, the one that tells you how many counters it comes into play with, is gone; because it has a separate ability that does it.
______________________________
http://www.pifro.com/mtg/

I'm Buttock1234 on the MSE Custom Script boards, the Wizards boards, the herzeleid.com boards, as well as the black-sabbath boards.

Mon, 2007-03-12 04:11
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Now I see. I see no way to do this though, even using the BunnieRein keyword system. So this is one case in which I must say, perhaps you should just turn the reminder text off for that particular instance of vanishing and type it yourself. I hate saying that, but this is clearly meant to be a rare exception.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.

Tue, 2007-03-13 18:54
BunnieRein
BunnieRein's picture

I could make another keyword type that has special exceptions when there are no known parameters. That would be quick and painless.

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Tue, 2007-03-13 23:19
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

But is it worth it? As I said, this is clearly an exception, not the rule.


There is now a custom file library for MSE2b located at http://www.pifro.com/mtg/.
My first custom set, The Taint: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/183.
My second custom set, Mare Harenum: http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/303.