Mirrodin Pure Community Set Design

continued...
Mon, 2012-09-17 01:39
Ayxmirdyrer

Slight revision.

Myr Berserker 5 mana symbol
Artifact Creature - Myr Red mana symbol
Double strike.
3 mana symbol: Myr Berserker gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
2/5
"They have told me of their plight, of so many lost to the Phyrexians, so I gave them the power to save their kind."
-Karn

It works because by the time you play him, you will probably have your infinite combo set up already.

Myr Lifebringer 3 mana symbol
Artifact Creature - Myr Red mana symbol
Tap symbol Target noncreature artifact becomes a Myr Artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.
2/2
"Perhaps it was Urza's spark, but I could not resist improving on their design."
-Karn

Mon, 2012-09-17 03:21
Anuttymous
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Voltaic - synonymous with Galvanic.

The Berserker still feels wrong - too bland for a rare. Maybe weakened as an uncommon. Compare with Char Rumbler as an uncommon.
The Lifebringer would work cheaper if it were "until end of turn", I think. Also, "you control" might be an idea - it can kill your opponent's Darksteel Relics!!!

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Mon, 2012-09-17 04:47
Guitarweeps
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Except Darksteel Relic doesn't exist in our alternate reality of Mirrodin Pure...
It does kill Moxes though, which I think is a good thing. It isn't overpowered compared to other answers to free artifacts.
I don't think that the Berserker is designed over or under powered. It is that it should be a Golem, not a Myr.

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Tue, 2012-09-18 00:21
Ayxmirdyrer

I agree with the design of making Lifebringer's ability only affect artifacts you (or possibly an ally) control, it seems more fitting, also, we do have at least one 0-drop artifact int he set file.

The Berserker does feel underpowered as a rare, I am not sure how to make it better without making it broken, though it has to be a myr for the flavor reason, or maybe Karn's modified myr could be myr golems? (That might be dangerous with the pseudo-splicers) Basically, it is a myr built for combat against the phyrexians...
Myr Berserker 5 mana symbol
Artifact Creature - Myr Red mana symbol
Double strike
Creatures dealt damage by Myr Berserker this turn don't cause abilities to trigger when they die.
3 mana symbol: Myr Berserker gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
2/5
<Karn's flavor text here, I grow lazy>

Inverse Torpor Orb?

Tue, 2012-09-18 00:48
Guitarweeps
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Inverse Torpor Orb? Please explain.

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Tue, 2012-09-18 01:02
Inanimate
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It's because it turns off death triggers, Guitarweeps.

Ayxmirdyrer, your card feels weird because it's a bunch of disparate parts. That's the problem. Try this:

Myr Berserker 6 mana symbol
Creature - Myr Rare
Double strike
4 mana symbol: Hellkite Igniter gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of artifacts you control.
4/4

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Wed, 2012-09-19 03:18
Ayxmirdyrer

The problem with that ability is that it becomes gigantic, since it can be activated many times. Turn 7 in a myr deck, you could very likely be using that ability 3 times, making a huge creature that hits twice! I decided to salvage the card into other cards...

Myr Striker 5 mana symbol
Artifact Creature - Myr Red mana symbol
Double strike
Myr creatures you control have haste.
Whenever Myr Striker attacks, put a 1/1 colorless myr creature token into play.
3/5

This would be interesting, allowing you to play any mana myr from your hand for instant mana, throw enough Semblance Anvils at it, and you actually gain mana from summoning creatures. Not sure if it's a good idea or a bad one.

I was looking at the Time Spiral Block, specifically the Magus Cycle, and I got to thinking "why not make one of those with certain powerful artifacts from the original Mirrodin Block?

Slayer of Worlds 5 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature - Human Warrior Red mana symbol
Whenever Slayer of Worlds deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature at end of combat.
Whenever Slayer of Worlds deals combat damage to a player, destroy all permanents.
3/4

Moriok Plated-Skull 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Human Warrior Blue mana symbol
Moriok Plated-Skull gets +1/+0 for each artifact you control.
0/3

Vulshok Lightning-Runner 1 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Human Warrior Blue mana symbol
Haste, shroud
Tap symbol: Target creature gains haste until end of turn.
2/2

It's not a complete cycle, the names are sort of... off, and no flavor text yet.

One last creature:
Vulshok War-Stoker 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Human Shaman Blue mana symbol
Tap symbol: Add Red mana symbol to your mana pool for each equipment on Vulshok War-Stoker.
1/2

Viridian Joiner re-imagined.

Tue, 2012-09-18 23:29
Anuttymous
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Slayer of Worlds I really like. The rest seems a bit iffy, but I think Slayer of Worlds would be awesome. Also, should be "destroy all other permanents", really, and perhaps a bit bigger P/T.
Moriok Plated-Skull is overcosted. The equipment was certainly too good, but I don't think this needs to be. Could easily just be 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol and be 0/1, I'd say.

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Wed, 2012-09-19 00:26
Guitarweeps
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I still think Myr Striker is a Golem...
Slayer of Worlds is interesting but not sure if this the best setting.
Moriok-Plated Skull - Lower cost and rarity and I love it!
Lightning-Runner - Red doesn't gave shroud. Maybe green?
Volshok War-Stoker - Amazing. Probably one of my favourite cards submitted for the set. I want to use it in my Skyrim set lol.

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Wed, 2012-09-19 01:27
Inanimate
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Well, I was making Myr Berserker based on another card, Hellkite Igniter... but I forgot to bump down the initial power. It was going to be a 2/2.

Volshok War-Stoker is beautiful.

Slayer of Worlds is the beginnings of an interesting cycle... I feel like it has space to explore.

Also known as Inanimate at Goblin Artisans, TurboJustice at MTGS, and TyrRev at /r/custommagic

Wed, 2012-09-19 02:30
Ayxmirdyrer

Well, Lightning Greaves certainly feels Red mana symbol to me. In an article on color splashing, Wizards explained how Form of the Dragon didn't seem Red mana symbol with its abilities until you looked at the whole card and the flavor of it. I guess I could see it as a Green mana symbol card, but to me, that has always been slower, though larger.

I am glad to see so much love for the War-Stoker, you can use something like it in the Skyrim set, if you want, and can come up with the flavor.

I see what you mean about the Moriok guy; he is really expensive, and without the artifact land cycle, not nearly as terrifying as the nim were. I edited the previous post to drop down his cost.

As for Slayer of Worlds, I noticed that the original creature is not spared when Worldslayer connects, that was why I didn't spare him, but if you feel it fits better to leave him standing, go ahead. As for the exile ability, I had been thinking "what happens to creatures hit by a sword that leaves an impact crater?"

On a semi-unrelated note Avacyn, Angel of Hope + Worldslayer.

Wed, 2012-09-19 02:50
Guitarweeps
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Lightning Greaves may feel red but only cause it has haste and has "lightning" in the name. Form of the Dragon is a beautiful top down design dripping with mouth watering flavor. not really in the same realm as Lightning Greaves. The closest thing that red can get to shroud is "Whenever this is the target of a spell or ability, it deals N damage to that source's controller".
Moriok can still be cheaper and uncommon. Remember that the original card was OP not only becuase of the bonus but the insta-equip effect. That doesn't apply here. Plus he is easy to kill.

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Wed, 2012-09-19 03:17
Ayxmirdyrer

If I was going to change it, I would be more comfortable taking away shroud than I changing it to green. There are 5 red cards with shroud, all of them are multicolored, there are no green cards with lightning in the name.

Also, Go for the Throat is the primary removal spell in the block, so the Moriok is rather vunerable, I feel he should be uncommon now too. I am not sure that I should make it cost the same as that spell, guess I could try Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol.

Thu, 2012-09-20 05:24
Kagerowrs

Then we might well as entirely avoid Lightning Greaves.

Whispersilk Cloak.

Vedelkan Whisperwalker 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Vedalkan Wizard Uncommon
Hexproof
2 mana symbol: Target creature is unblockable until end of turn. Use this ability only once per turn.
2/2

Thunderstaff

Frontier Myr 4 mana symbol
Artifact Creature - Myr Scout Rare
Battle cry
As long as Frontier is untapped, if a creature would deal combat damage to you or other creatures you control, prevent 1 of that damage.
2/2

Tue, 2012-09-25 22:41
Ayxmirdyrer

I like the Whisperwalker, though Hexproof wasn't keyworded yet, and I feel Shroud is truer to the original card.

The only problem I have with Thunderstaff is that it isn't a memorable card; I don't remember ever seeing it run in a deck.

I decided to redo the Lightning Greaves guy, since it is the best Red mana symbol example I can find
Vulshok Lightning Runner 1 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Human Warrior Colorless mana symbol
Haste
Tap symbol: Target creature gains haste until end of turn.
2/2

Honestly, it feels pretty weak without the shroud effect.

There really isn't much that I would consider Green mana symbol equipment, mechanically, Loxodon Warhammer could be, but the flavor doesn't work.

Wed, 2012-09-26 03:15
Guitarweeps
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Well, the whisperwalker would be rough with shroud since it couldn't target himself then. Otherwise I like it. I think it should be a hybrid though.

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Wed, 2012-09-26 05:33
Kagerowrs

I think creature version of Thunderstaff feels much more interesting then its Artifact version, not only that. Frontier Myr's prevention ability is MUCH stronger then Thunderstaff (as it prevents 1 combat damage to creatures you control as well.) Even I have Solemn Simulacrum, I might even consider running him instead of Simulacrum. It is especially useful against 1/X deathtoucher.

Wed, 2012-09-26 11:22
Anuttymous
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I feel it would look more fluid if the creatures were to just be as though they were equipped. E.G.:

Lightning Runner 1 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Human Berserker Colorless mana symbol
Haste, shroud
2/2

Of course, red doesn't really get shroud. Haste and shroud both work in green, though?

Whispersilk Stalker 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Vedalken Wizard Blue mana symbol
Shroud
CARDNAME is unblockable.
2/1

Effectively like putting the equipment on a vanilla creature.
Or we could use equipment that are slightly more specific to themselves, like Worldslayer, so that abilities could be modified to suit themselves as creatures.

Spoiler:
Banshee Bladewielder 2 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Banshee Colorless mana symbol
Flying
Whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
2/2

Heartseeking Assassin 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Human Assassin Red mana symbol
5 mana symbol, Tap symbol: Destroy target creature.
2/1

Other good contenders could be:
Mask of Memory, Scythe of the Wretched, Surestrike Trident, Swords of X and Y.

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Wed, 2012-09-26 15:41
Ayxmirdyrer

While I do think Thunderstaff creature is cool, it doesn't allude to the artifact, I still think the card could be included in the set, as it would be a useful myr to have around.

Giant Solifuge is the only creature with both haste and shroud.

I don't want to make a creature for each equipment, I think that just one cycle would be enough.

Wed, 2012-09-26 17:17
sommbsnph

R Lightning Greaves
G Loxodin Warhammer
W Thunderstaff
U Isochron Scepter
B Skullclamp
A AEther Vial

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Wed, 2012-09-26 23:06
Guitarweeps
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Wait... we are using living weapon and a possible Mirran version so why not use that for these cards?

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Thu, 2012-09-27 00:11
Ayxmirdyrer

Some match up with rig well, we could possibly do a cranial plating rigger; others would be difficult to justify, like the worldslayer guy. I think just one cycle of nostalgic equipment wielders would be fun. On that note, we could do that cranial plating rigger, then use Scythe of the Wretched in the cycle:

Wretched Reaper 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Vampire Warrior Red mana symbol
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Wretched Reaper dies, you may return it to play under your control.
Sacrifice a creature you control but don't own: regenerate Wretched Reaper.
4/4
Soul Collector already exists, I feel this guy would be a lot of fun to play, but it might be M Mana for MTG Extra-level.

Thu, 2012-09-27 00:18
BolasDragon
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Don't forget the original Wretched.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
"The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog." Mark Twain

Thu, 2012-09-27 00:24
Heads vs Tails
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Spoiler:
Magnetic Myr 4 mana symbol
Artifact Creature- Myr Red mana symbol
When ~ enters the battle field equip all equipment you control to ~.
Tap symbol: Add 1 mana symbol to your mana pool for each equipment on ~.
0/0

Spoiler:
These might be too pro phyrexian for the set, but I thought I'd give them a try.

Phyrexian Lotus Phyrexian Black ManaPhyrexian Black ManaPhyrexian Black Mana
Artifact Red mana symbol
Tap symbol, sacrifice Phyrexian Lotus: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.
Phyrexians like to believe they are perfect, then why couldn't they improve the Lotus?(flavor text)

Nythamnous, the Anointer 3 mana symbolPhyrexian White ManaPhyrexian White ManaPhyrexian White Mana
Legendary Artifact Creature- Cleric Horror M Mana for MTG Extra
Vigilance
You may spend colored mana costs as though it had the Phyrexian Colorless Mana symbol.
6/3
"In his wake flowed a river of oil, so he may baptize all heathens into the Machine Orthodoxy."
-Argent Etchings, plate 19, passage 22 (flavor text)

Current Set:
Dabriohm: an equipment & threshold set. http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/node/8723

Thu, 2012-09-27 00:42
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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@Heads vs Tails: Please don't forget that most combo decks don't care for their life total at all - that Lotus does cost you 6 life to play for free, but that is enough to instantly break him in all eternal formats Winking smiley

Thu, 2012-09-27 01:14
Inanimate
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And there's no Phyrexian mana in this set, anyway.

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Thu, 2012-09-27 01:25
Heads vs Tails
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Well out of curiosity, what might be a good way to balance it? Enter the battlefield tapped? You may personal message me any suggestions.

Please disregard my Phyrexian submissions, seeing as phyrexian mana is not appearing this set.

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Thu, 2012-09-27 05:42
Kagerowrs

@Heads vs Tails - I did tried to balance Lotus out many times. But unless it can't be used in turn 1 unless in stroke of luck, it usually doesn't work.

Chaos Lotus 0 mana symbol
Artifact Rare
When you cast Chaos Lotus, flip two coins. If both coins are not head, counter Chaos Lotus.
Tap symbol: Add four mana of any one color to your mana pool.

Although in that case, Good luck seeing them on advanced player's deck.

Fri, 2012-09-28 22:38
Ayxmirdyrer

@Bolas: What do you mean?

I was thinking about a lotus the other day, it may need some rebalancing:

Argent Lotus 3 mana symbol
Artifact Red mana symbol
Sacrifice Argent Lotus: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.
Metalcraft - Tap symbol: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool, activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

Something about this makes me think it may be broken.
oh wait:
Play 1 argent Lotus: Sac it to play another: Sac to play another: Sac for White mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol and play Second Sunrise, could happen as early as turn 2.

Fri, 2012-09-28 22:53
sommbsnph

Turn 1 with Dark Ritual
Go turn 1 Emrakul + Triple Gilded Loti

the sac ability needs a tap cost too.

Turn 1: (on the draw)

Swamp
Dark Ritual
Argent Lotus x3
Second Sunrise
Emrakul
Second Sunrise

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Sat, 2012-09-29 01:09
Kagerowrs

Chaos Lotus is obsolete because they dropped coin flip from being proper mechanic...

I still believe if we're going to make Lotus in this set, it should cost 0 mana symbol.

Anyone have an idea to make it NOT broken while not randomizing the drop?

Sat, 2012-09-29 02:44
BolasDragon
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I mean The Wretched.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." George Carlin
"The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog." Mark Twain

Sat, 2012-09-29 03:22
Guitarweeps
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I think a balanced lotus for zero mana is not possible.

EDIT: Actually, maybe it has to sac three artifacts as you cast it?

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Sat, 2012-09-29 08:10
Daij_Djan
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@@Kagerowrs: Actually, there are more and more coin flips getting back into Magic again Winking smiley See Creepy Doll, Tavern Swindler or Volatile Rig..

Sat, 2012-09-29 11:13
sommbsnph

naa
just make it require metalcraft to use ala Mox Opal.

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Sat, 2012-09-29 12:34
Guitarweeps
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Well, I don't think we should design a card that would be pre-ristricted in Vintage and pre-banned in every other format except standard.
I mean look at the drawback on Lion's Eye Diamond and yet it still managed to get banned for being too powerful.

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Sat, 2012-09-29 15:02
Kagerowrs

@Guitarweep - I don't think Chaos Lotus will even get to see play in competitive if it would be printed. As powerful as most of the coin flips cards they were, no one were interested in luck based card in tournament.

Mon, 2012-10-01 15:04
Ayxmirdyrer

I do like Chaos Lotus, I was thinking, maybe with its tap ability, you have to flip a coin, if you lose, sac it.

Idea:
Chaos Lotus 0 mana symbol
Tap symbol: Flip two coins, if both of them are heads, add three mana of any one color to your mana pool, otherwise, sacrifice Chaos Lotus.
Metalcraft- Tap symbol: Flip a coin, if heads, add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool, activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

It's just more chaotic this way, but at least if you have 3 artifacts, you don't sac it when you lose the flip.

Mon, 2012-10-01 15:53
Kagerowrs

@Ayxmirdyrer

Lotus Chaos 0 mana symbol
Artifact Rare(?)
Metalcraft - Tap symbol: Flip a coin, if you win, you may sacrifice Lotus Chaos and add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

Mox Opal did prove that Mox with Metalcraft balances out a bit. I guess this is okay. But since giving 'Legendary' penalty would do nothing to Lotus, coin flip will even it out.

Mon, 2012-10-01 15:54
Kagerowrs

Or there is another base design.

(This card was design broken order cycle with Black Lotus)

Lotus White 0 mana symbol
Artifact Mythic Rare
Sacrifice Lotus White, Tap symbol: Double the amount of each type of mana in your mana pool.

That said, maybe return of the something similar to doubling cube?

Tue, 2012-10-02 15:43
Ayxmirdyrer

Actually, a doubling lotus could be interesting.

I was thinking about the artifact lands, and I know that there is the whole element of them being too powerful.

This is a thought:
Myr Nexus
Artifact Land Red mana symbol
Tap symbol: add 1 mana symbol to your mana pool.
3 mana symbol, Tap symbol: untap target myr.
"Here, two important myr trails converge, yet we can't seem to figure out why."
- Vedalken research notes.

And a locus:
Guardpost
Land - Locus Colorless mana symbol
Tap symbol: add 1 mana to your mana pool.
5 mana symbol, Tap symbol: put a colorless Myr creature token into play with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of locus lands on the battlefield."
Where territory was contested, the locii did more than just watch.

Tue, 2012-10-02 18:56
Kagerowrs

Ayxmirdyrer - I think Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva to 12post is already dangerous enough. (Banned in Modern, by the way.)

Myr Nexus is... It is balanced, but I don't think it is doing anything.

Thu, 2012-10-04 03:28
Ayxmirdyrer

I noticed in the set file, there was a locus, so I took it upon myself to accept the challenge.

The Nexus helps Metalcraft.

Fri, 2012-10-05 14:19
Guitarweeps
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The doubling is interesting for the Lotus although I would go away from lotus flavor with that idea. Also remember that the block already had Mox Opal at this point.

I was looking for a Locus actually; however, that one is way too good. Token generators this effecient shouldn't be common. Cloudpost was deemed too powerful and banned in modern. That doesn't mean that all other cards with the Locus type should be considered OP.

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Fri, 2012-10-05 15:52
Kagerowrs

Uh huh...

Shining Lotus 0 mana symbol
Artifact Mythic Rare
Shining Lotus enters the battlefield tapped.
Tap symbol, sacrifice Skyward Lotus, a land, and an artifact you control: Add four mana of each different color of your choice to your mana pool.

Solar Cube 3 mana symbol
Artifact Rare
When Solar Cube enters the battlefield, choose a color.
Tap symbol, sacrifice Solar Cube: Double the amount of each mana of chosen color in your mana pool.

Vapor Orb 3 mana symbol
Artifact Rare
Permanents entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
"I don't understand how come a phyrexian would give a gift to mirran, but it is impressive regardless."
-Tezzeret

Puresteel Relic 1 mana symbol
Artifact Uncommon
Puresteel Relic is indestructible.
Tap symbol, Sacrifice Puresteel Relic: Remove all counters from target creature.

What do you think about re-introducing Free Spells (Rewind for example.) or Pitch card (Misdirection)? I think it might be fitting, like Pitch Card requiring colorless Artifact card to pitch to cast it for free... Or Reducing the cost via (Like Pitching it would reduce all the colorless mana cost...)

Sun, 2012-10-07 00:10
Ayxmirdyrer

I think Pitch cards could be kind of fun.

How about a Quicken-style card:
Spontaneous Fabrication 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Red mana symbol
You may exile a colorless artifact card from your hand rather than pay Spontaneous Fabrication's casting cost.
The next artifact spell you play can be cast as though it had flash.
One second, the horror was about to devour Venser, the next, it was impaled on his golem's spear.

I like Rewind-style spells, but have they been featured in any other color?

Mon, 2012-10-08 06:35
Kagerowrs

@Ayxmirdyrer - Isn't that little too weak?

Rewind styled free spell have... Never been featured in other color. But it is possible. I will prepare example...

Huh. Mental Misstep isn't going to be if NPH is gone.

I guess it is fine to try something stupid.

Pitch Card
Objection 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Uncommon
You may exile an artifact card from your hand rather than pay Objection's mana cost.
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard.
"Your last mistake is thinking we would just handover what we worked for so long."
-Kara Vrist, Neurok Agent

Off color counter, exactly same position as Mental Misstep, but different in other way. Maybe needed to be bit more weaker.

Off Colored
Well, those are just example.

Persuasion 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Enchantment - Aura Uncommon
Enchant creature
When Persuasion enters the battlefield, you may choose each opponent to gain 4 life. If you do, you may untap up to three lands.
Enchanted creature can’t attack or block.

Kill 2 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Instant Uncommon
Destroy target creature. Then you may discard a card to untap up to four lands.

Cinder Fire 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Instant Uncommon
Cinder Fire deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Add 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol to your mana pool.

Green can just untap lands without any penalty (Since it is it's own color.)

And for blue... Let's apply Metalcraft.

Mon, 2012-10-08 19:10
sommbsnph

Objection should cantrip

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Mon, 2012-10-08 22:24
Ayxmirdyrer

I know Spontaneous Fabrication feels weak, it's also deliberately overcosted, just like Force of Will, still playing around with the concept.

Spontaneous Fabrication 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Red mana symbol
You may exile a colorless artifact card from your hand, rather than pay Spontaneous Fabrication's cost.
The next artifact spell you play can be cast as though it had flash. If you exiled a card this way, it costs X mana symbol less to cast, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost.
One second, the horror was about to devour Venser, the next, it was impaled on his golem's spear.

I think if you want to do a Blue mana symbol free and do metalcraft, why not untap the lands iff you have metalcraft?
(iff means "If and only if," for those who don't know.)

Mon, 2012-10-08 22:30
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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Quote:
(iff means "If and only if," for those who don't know.)

Sorry for sidetracking, but as mathematical student I'm a little interested if this "iff" is used in "normal" english or more or less a mathematical phrase (since I know this sentence so well Winking smiley ).