Lumehaven community set

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Wed, 2010-09-15 07:30
Anuttymous
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That sounds like a fantastic storyline, thanks Guitarweeps. I think:

Quote:
Another group comes from the multiverse; a group which has rivaled the Ota before...more details later as this is based on my backstory of the Ota.

For the 3rd set. And then maybe for a 4th set they turn against Lumehaven and try to take the Bastions for their own? But we'll only do that if, when we get to the 3rd set, we feel we can do another.

Anyone else unhappy with the above storyline? If not, could I ask 'Weeps to draft this into a full storyline? Or just flesh out some of the ideas, remembering nothing is any specific colour, and we don't want the storyline to completely monopolize the set. Just define it.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Wed, 2010-09-15 09:12
lunar
lunar's picture

@ Nutty, Theonlyjett, Everyone else: We're going the wrong way with both the flavor and the mechanics. Or maybe that's just me, but here's my complaints:

"Lumehavieans" Is a great word to describe the inhabitants of this plane. However thos inhabitants are NOT multicolor elves, and NOT foxes unless they're of the non-sentient kind.

@ Copapoc specifically: This is not a dump for OP cards and random enchantments. They have to be balanced and mechanically sound, because this is a set after all. No 1-card combos.

...And can Nutty please change this thread's name to "Lumehaven Community Set"? Please? Thanks. A happy smile

When you die, you lose a very important part of your life.

Wed, 2010-09-15 13:27
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Not until everyone's happy that Lumehaven is what we want it called.
I'll give people one last chance to say against it, and then we're sticking with the supposed story from Guitarweeps.
Then I'll give the thread the name that it's been given.
Until then, card ideas are very welcome, and I think Copapoc's cards are fairly fine, or at the ideas on the cards. It's better to post 5 overpowered cards in the hopes of giving us a good idea, than no cards at all.
But anyway, no feuds. More cards!
I will, eventually, put up a "Cards needed" thing at the front, once we've decided on the story.

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Wed, 2010-09-15 17:07
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Races - I am not sure I am agreeing with the suggestions there. It is more like a zoo! Tons of animals. That is not what I would think of when thinking of a world where enchantmal magic is considered the most powerful kind and achieving an enchantmal form is the highest honor. I think that Humans and Elves are a must have for a setting like that. Aside from that though I think we should approach the races of this plane with an open mind. There is no need to do anything remotely tribal in a set like this so I think we should just allow open reigns. Aside from a few locations or a few tribes I wouldn't see this setting as one where every race is off to themselves. I think they would be fairly integrated.

The possessing spirits is an intriguing idea. Not sure if we have room for more enchantmal mechanics but we can flesh it out and see what ones are best.

@lunar - I am confused. What are you talking about with the wrong direction? Are you talking about the story, races, cards submitted? Everything? Quite honestly, you make a lot of general and ambiguous comments that leave me confused as to what it is that you are actually meaning or commenting on. It would be helpful if you would be more specific. I am not sure if you think that someone will be offended if you directly comment against something they did but don't worry about that. Directness will help get the point across and foster groth among our group better. If anyone can't take critisism they can move onto another project...

About card submissions. Yes, some of the cards submitted are ridiculous, but they can point towards in idea we might use. Or we might not use it and that is ok. Wizards often keeps less than 10% of the cards designed for a set in the final file. That is a lot of thrown out cards. It is ok to have cards submitted to throw away especially if an idea behind the card can inspire something else.

Remember when we talked about the different colors interaction with enchantments. I think everyone agreed that black should not have anti-enchantment. What if black was weak against enchantment. For instance:

Fleshrend 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Instant
Destroy target nonblack, nonenchantment creature.

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2010-09-15 21:11
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I think black would be fairly weak against enchantments anyway, due to there being a VERY small amount of enchantment removal in that colour. That's probably enough, no need to add insult to injury.
If no one objects, I'll confirm the storyline and set name, and put up the needed cards list, tomorrow. In the afternoon, I expect (which would be late morning for most of you, I expect Stick out your tongue).
By the way, Fleshrend is a pretty good card, I'll note that somewhere.

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
Ask me if you need any help

Thu, 2010-09-16 00:57
theonlyjett
theonlyjett's picture

Guitarweeps wrote:
Races - I am not sure I am agreeing with the suggestions there. It is more like a zoo! Tons of animals.
Haha! I wasn't going for that many at first, I was just thinking along the lines of Native American and shamanistic type magic traditions from the real world and was going with animal totems and rehashing a bit of kamigawa for the Japanese mythology. Really, I didn't think any of those in particular needed to be in the set, it was more for the idea of it. I very much agree with no primary races, but of course, I already said that, lol. I would like to see more humanoid snakes in green and a little black and this seems to be a decent place to throw some in. Also bears. Sentient bears are awesome, duh. Sentient bears that use magic? Very awesome. Foxes, birds, whatever, I can do without.

Guitarweeps wrote:
The possessing spirits is an intriguing idea. Not sure if we have room for more enchantmal mechanics but we can flesh it out and see what ones are best.
No new mechanic, just a different than normal flavor for enchantments. Also, maybe it's a good reason to have a couple tapping enchantments.

Guiding Presence 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Enchanment -- Spirit Aura
Enchant creature
Tap symbol: Enchanted creature gets protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.
~ may be played from the graveyard as if it were in your hand.
"The True Master's destiny lies within his student." -- The Book of Three, part 3

While I'm on the subject of Spirit Auras, in the sets that I work on and in random cards I make, I often put spell types on non-creature spells in the same manner that creature types were all about flavor before tribal mechanics were all the rage. I'll probably submit cards with these on there just cause and they can obviously be taken off if you like. If interested, you can see more what I'm talking about in the spoiler, if not, that's cool, too. Again, just want to throw stuff out there for ya. :)

Spoiler:
Like creatures tend to have both race and class types (Human Wizard, Elf Warrior), I generally use two kinds of types for spell types. These are tradition and element types. Tradition types are about the style or a specific type of magic that some tribe uses or that one shaman taught his apprentice. These examples are the core ones I use, but aren't exhaustive of the possibilities:

Dream Magic - connected to the spirit world and to nature. Primarily Green, with White and Black tied for second and dabbling in red. Absorb. Shamans.

Primal Magic - Big Creatures. Green and Red. Devour.

Essence or Soul Magic - White and Green only. Shamans. Sacrificial theme.

Radiant Magic - White and Red. Armies and Heavenly fire. Convoke. Soldier.

Void Magic - The lessening of energy, and therefore life, and both creation and destruction. The eventual return to nothing. Primarily Black, secondary in White and Blue. Offering and/or Threshold. Clerics.

Arcane Magic- Use of the intelligence. Formulas, repeated spells, and constant experimentation. Blue, with secondary in red. Related creature type: Wizard.

Discipline or Chi Magic - Mental, Mind, Ki, or Chi. Psychic power or force of will. Red and White, with secondary Blue and splash of Black. Related creature type: Monk or ninja.

Divine Magic - Calling upon other beings, powers, or ideals as a source of power or relying on their favor. Clerics.

Chaos Magic - High energy mana prone to mass destruction and fast instants. Red, of course, with secondary in Black and White, and splashes in green. Splice. Monk.

Artifice Magic - Refined Mana. Related to artifacts. Wizards. Primarily Blue with splashes in White and Black. Affinity.

Elements are more obvious. They include fire, frost, water, air, earth, life, death, pain, light, dark, wood, metal, time, and AEther. This list is also not exhaustive and there may be more specific types.

Examples:
Sorcery -- Chaos Death
Instant -- Radiant Fire
Sorcery -- Divine Pain
Instant -- Chi Air
Enchantment -- Arcane Frost
Sorcery -- Void Time

The point is not to make them only for type matters situations, but to use them for flavor on most non-creature spells. Again, this is just something I like to do, I'll lose no sleep over anything you want to do. A happy smile IF you are even a bit interested, is there a specific tradition name or three of your own you would use for the magic on this plane?


About the name, Lumehaven is fine, and it does let you have the first set and block name start with Lum-something, which is what you wanted originally, right? Name doesn't matter too much to me, personally, though. Whatever makes Nutty happy, makes me happy. Stick out your tongue

Edit: Almost forgot. Guitarweeps story is fine, but what exactly are the Ota?

Thu, 2010-09-16 01:49
Aedan Fire
Aedan Fire's picture

Even though I have read most of these posts in this thread I am a little confused as to what a creature in this set may look like. But, I have an idea for two cards.

Dire Bearmancer 2 mana symbolGreen mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature — Bear ::
Green mana symbol,Tap symbol: Target enchanted creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
Tap symbol: Add Green mana symbol to your mana pool.
3/3

Dawn Ota 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature — Ota Cleric ::
Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, you may gain 2 life.
2/2

Thu, 2010-09-16 08:41
lunar
lunar's picture

@ Nutty: Sorry my friend, but i'm out of this project. I just don't feel like I can make a valuable contribution anymore. But there are good designs here and I will continue to check up on what you guys are doing. I just won't be submitting anything of my own.

...It is a good set, mind you. Winking smiley

When you die, you lose a very important part of your life.

Thu, 2010-09-16 13:50
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I'm not sure what you want from these noncreature subtypes, but I am sure that we don't want to add any more complexity into our set. Maybe these subtypes could form a different set, something for you to work on? Maybe something for you and others to work with?

Right, I see no objections, so I'll post everything promised up, right after I've had lunch...

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Thu, 2010-09-16 15:28
copapoc

@ Guitarweeps: could you send me an email containing the current story ? (i wanna look it over close, make some additions or somthing like that, and most important, make some concept art Big smile (art ALWAYS inspires my cards )

Thu, 2010-09-16 16:19
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I don't know if Guitarweeps has done/wants to do the proper full storyline, but if not, I will.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Thu, 2010-09-16 17:28
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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@lunar - It wasn't what I said was it? I wasn't talking about everything you say just a couple comments. I don't mind the comments, I welcome constructive critisism. It just is hard to apply if I don't understand that is all. If you don't choose to help out, you are still welcome to drop in and make comments/suggestions.

@copapoc - I can email you if you wish although I don't have everything in writing and I didn't really intend on authoritarianly writing the story unless everyone is ok with that. I was just going to post it on here in spoilers but I can do both. Standby while I put everything down...

Hmmm... I still don't like the idea of having sentient animals but we'll see... Ota is a group not a race... umm, right?!

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2010-09-16 17:41
copapoc

@ guitarweeps: id' like to have wathever you have writen Big smile (plz, don't go and spend your evening typing some stuff out, just send me some stuff you already have Big smile)

I think the ota are a race. and a group.

i migth show you something, but i got a really fun something doodeld here. i'll put it up when i think its fine
(its a sort of mirrodin sun, partially touching the surface (think of it as a bolb of enchantments and mana) slightly pulling the earth upwards, and around it. then, in the close suroundings is the bastion of suns, main station, using the flood of mana coming off it to cast their enchantments
for the bastion of the moon, its inverted. here we have a black -red - blueish ball of mana, embeded in the earth, pulling it downwards, and making a crater

both balls are increddibly powerfull, and are used by the bastions.

[pictures later]

Thu, 2010-09-16 18:10
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Quote:
Ota is a group not a race... umm, right?!

Correct. It's generally harder to have races throughout all colours without being multicoloured, therefore they're a group of random people/animals that attacked and stole the Bastion of Suns. Possibly the entire inhabitants of a destroyed plane united with a single purpose?

Anyway, Guitarweeps, I don't want you to go too in depth with the story, in my opinion, it's good as it is now. The reason is, I don't want any design space intruded upon. We can finish the story on how the cards go through, at the end.

Anyway, about the cards:
I've posted the "Needed cards" thing on the front post, so please, take a look and if you think of any ideas, go for it!

We do still need two nonenchantment keywords - a returning one and a new one. Anything you can suggest?

[edit]
I'm thinking Bloodthirst, because the people have been forced to the Bastion of Moons, which harbours evil magic.
And for a new one, how about my old one: Blood price.
Blood price <number>-<cost> (You may cast this card for <cost>. If you do, you lose <number> life.)
Perhaps not both Bloodthirst and Blood price, but does anyone perticularly like the idea of either one?
[/edit]

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Thu, 2010-09-16 18:22
theonlyjett
theonlyjett's picture

The non-creature types are mostly just for flavor. The big set I work on by myself has them, but they don't matter mechanically for that set. It's just to seed my sets with them so that I could do spell type matters cards rather than just red or blue matters mechanics. Think of it like you'll have elves in the set undoubtedly, but probably not any cards that care that there's elves in this set. Again, just throwing it out there as I'm feeling like helping make this set, and that's something I do with mine.

Thu, 2010-09-16 18:25
copapoc

so, a picture:

No bastion of the sun, without a sun. really close.

Spoiler:

its a bad and fast doodle. if you'd like to see this really fleshed out and looking gorgious, say it, and i'l try to do somthing about it Big smile for now i'm doodling the moon one.

Thu, 2010-09-16 18:27
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I'm not sure whether they'd be particularly useful in this set, but if everyone wants to go along with it, then why not? But I wouldn't get hopeful. Tribal is there for this kinda thing, people are unlikely to use different, strange subtypes like those.

Oh, can we refrain from making mythics and planeswalker, just for now, until we've got most of the mechanical cards sorted out? Feel free to refuse this, if you have a good mythic/planeswalker idea, but I'd just like to conserve those spaces for a while.

[edit]Was that drawn with Muro on DeviantArt, Copapoc? Just wondering.
It looks good, not sure what those floating bits are, just rock I'm guessing.
Anyway, it's a good picture, that we could use as a card, or definitely at least as a preview picture.
Thanks.
[/edit]

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Thu, 2010-09-16 18:30
copapoc

nutty@ nah, i whipped it up in sai. i guess that it's time to get it to card-art level Big smile
(expect me back in like ... an hour ?)

Thu, 2010-09-16 18:32
theonlyjett
theonlyjett's picture

So I'll just go with what I said before and put them on the cards I submit and if it grows on people, cool, if not, cool. Again, it's just something I like to do so I threw it out there.

@Guitarweeps: Ok, I know you don't like the idea of sentient animals, but I still want to insist on bears! If you think you can handle that, I promise I won't make or push any more animal types. Stick out your tongue

As far as planeswalker/mythics go, I agree. I think rushing in to make those first is a mistake when making a set. But not because of mechanics, because of story and flavor. We should have some characters fleshed out and their stories (or idea of them) and THEN think of how to best represent those on a card.

Thu, 2010-09-16 19:08
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Quote:
nah, i whipped it up in sai. i guess that it's time to get it to card-art level

Erm... We originally said that the Bastion of Suns wouldn't become a card, though since the revision, I don't know if that still holds true. But I would very much like to see it at card-art-worthy.

For both reasons, theonlyjett. Feel free to post bears galore, but remember, a lot of cards will end up being scrapped, I imagine, so don't expect there to end up being a heavy Bear theme.
Anyway, I'm going to post a few cards I've been brainstorming for the front cards in a minute, so feel free to post.

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Thu, 2010-09-16 19:22
theonlyjett
theonlyjett's picture

I'm not sure what it is, but I never meant any of the things I threw out to be a major theme at all! Considering Wizards doesn't use even 10%, I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't use most stuff.

Thu, 2010-09-16 19:28
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Feel free to throw out anything, I was just saying you might not get as much of what you want in there. Anyway, we're not Wizards, so it'll probably only be about 10% that doesn't get included.
How about these? Feel free to suggest names, and change anything you want about them. Ideas, at this point.

Arcanum Binds Blue mana symbol
Enchantment - Aura Colorless mana symbol
Enchant creature
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, sacrifice unless it's attached to a creature you control.
If enchanted creature would untap, instead it doesn't.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may attach CARDNAME to that creature.

Blinding Power
Enchantment - Aura Blue mana symbol
(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)
Enchant creature
Shroud
CARDNAME is white.
Enchanted creature has shroud, it can't attack or block and it's activated abilities can't be activated.

A good use for Aura swap...

Sacrificial Bonds Black mana symbol
Enchantment - Aura Blue mana symbol
Enchant creature you control
If enchanted creature would be the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
Aura swap 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol (1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol: Exchange this Aura with an Aura card in your hand.)

A cheap Aura swap, but at a cost.

[edit]
By the way, does anyone feel Aura swap needs better reminder text? I was thinking something more like this woould work better:

Aura swap 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol (1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol, Return this to its owner's hand: Put an Aura card from your onto the battlefield attached to enchanted creature.)
[/edit]

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
Ask me if you need any help

Thu, 2010-09-16 19:42
copapoc

a better version Big smile (i changed quite a bit, as the house thingy's and stuff really took a blow at the level of awsome.

Spoiler:

Art by Copapoc (is that necesary ?)

@ nutty: i think that the first version of aura swap is better (shorter reminder text)

Thu, 2010-09-16 19:43
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I think that looks likes a perfect representation of when the Bastion of Suns is taken over by the Ota and absorbed by them. However, that's in the second set... But the picture is fantastic! We will eventually use it for sure. Maybe a similar one with the Bastion of Suns in the foreground, to show that the light is something else?
Or suggest what we can use it for instead? Maybe create a card for it?

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Thu, 2010-09-16 19:51
copapoc

i'dd like to call it "the core of the bastion" as it's the source of all there enchantment-creating mana. most fit for this would be a Enchantment, giving mana when enchantments are cast. so here we go:

Core of the Bastion 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Legendary enchantment Red mana symbol
1 mana symbol, Tap symbol: add 3 mana symbol or White mana symbolWhite mana symbol to your manapool. use this mana only to cast enchantments, or to activate abilities of enchantments.

Thu, 2010-09-16 19:54
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Seems pretty good. Could perhaps cost White mana symbolWhite mana symbol, as it's fairly restrictive. I can't imagine it would be too powerful, except in a totally enchantment deck. We'll see if other's have anything to say.

Anuttymous the Gathering
Anonymous + nutty = A-nutty-mous (no mice involved)
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Thu, 2010-09-16 20:03
copapoc

ah, kay Big smile
I'm gonna do lighter art for this one, with a blueish sky with less flying ruble and more puffy clouds and stuff. in set 2 it might actually be the WoG effect for the set.
now i'm gonna go and fill some of "cards we need" slots.

oh, and i'd like to step on your toes, and say that i have a little PW in the making (a neutral, blue one) but i'll keep it back for a whil, till its fully finished Big smile

Thu, 2010-09-16 20:47
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Feel free to post the planeswalker, I was just telling people not to think them up, if you've already got one, we can have a look at it.
But I don't want people beginning to think them up now. For now lets get the smaller flavourful and mechanical cards done.

And WoG effect? I dunno, but is that a Day of Judgment effect? I was thinking it could be an enchantment purging effect, but things like Tempest of Light just seem weak, and don't have such dramatic pictures.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Fri, 2010-09-17 00:39
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Spoiler:
Ota backstory
Spoiler:
The Ota are originally from the plane of Gilderon. Gilderon was mostly a peaceful plane where high value was placed on knowledge and honor. Legend has it that they possessed a relic which granted its possessors unparalleled magical powers as well as immortality. This power is guarded closely by the Ota, a rigid caste of knights and wizards. Their physical and magical powers are unmatched by others in the multiverse. One day, a wizard knight named Gravion Kalsoot, while in a state of meditation sparks and planeswalks for the first time. He is inspired by this newfound power and travels the multiverse in search of more knowledge and magical power. After a some years of this he returns to Gilderon to share his experiences with them. He is received well and restored back in the Ota caste. Soon, planeswalkers begin to come to Gilderon seeking the magical power that the Ota guard. Some are peaceful and hope to be granted access whilst others come to wage war against the Ota. Although the Ota are able to hold off all threats but they are outraged at Gravion for spreading their secrets throughout the multiverse. Although Gravion claims he did no such thing, he is found guilty as a traitor and banished from the plane. Outraged, he retreats to the multiverse to hone his skills once again. A decade later he returns to Gilderon with an army and attacks the Ota. Although the Ota think they are prepared for any threat, they are not ready to fight a foe that already knows their strengths and weaknesses. Gravion came prepared using the magic of necromancy which the plane had never seen before. As he raises their own dead to fight against them they are overwrought, terrorized, and overcome. They retreat to his forces and he sends message that he will spare the plane if they give him the relic. He meets with the Elder Knight, Baron Filham, but Baron tells him that there is no relic, it is a magical spell that grants them their powers. Gravion believes he is lying and is infuriated. He attempts to enter the Elder Knight's mind to find the truth but can't because of a protective aura. He kills the Elder Knight and then continues razing the plane. The few remaining Ota get together and attempt a magical spell to escape. The result allows them to transgress their physical forms and pass into multiverse. They have been travelling the multiverse from plane to plane searching for a way to return to their physical forms and return to take Gilderon. They hear of Lumehaven and the magical enchantmal properties that it has from a planeswalker they meet. Believing that this lumination would once again grant them physical form they make their way to Lumehaven to the Bastion of Suns.

Current Setting
Spoiler:
The Ota arrive on Lumehaven and immediately head to the Bastion of Suns. The protectors of the Bastion make no match for the Ota’s magic and spiritual form. The Bastion of Suns indeed grants the Ota an enchantmal physical form but now they can no longer transgress the multiverse to return to Gilderon. They decide to investigate the Bastion of Moons as well to see if the magical properties it offers would grant a solution.

We can decide on more details of the later parts of the story later but I was thinking that Gravion could bring his army to Lumehaven in an attempt to destroy the Ota once and for all in set 2 or 3. It actually might make a good setting for the "second part" of the block.

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2010-09-17 01:01
Kiku
Creative Direction Award
Kiku's picture

I noticed that the main post asks for 2 more mechanics, which seem like important things to get made to me, before we start pumping out cards. For the returning mechanic (non enchantment) i see 3 potential options: Flashback, Buyback, and persist. I would recommend flashback and buyback since the set has no theme yet for it's instants and sorceries (kind of like how they added rebound in ROE so that instants and sorceries got something to do). Persist would be great as a subtle way to help the enchantment theme without directly stating it (enchantments need targets, and every creature with persist gets 2 lives, so they could help give you targets for all your enchantments). The new mechanic should mirror the returning one (i.e. If we choose to use persist then we need an instant and sorcery mechanic; if we choose flashback or buyback then we need a new creature mechanic that in some way gives extra targets for our enchantments).
A sample mechanic for each side, feel free to change names of mechanics for flavor issues

Spoiler:

My Hub
I really hate Mythic Rares...
TRUE WEEB ANIME OR NO ANIME AT ALL
NO TOLERANCE FOR WIMPY FALSE ANIME
School Days taught me everything I need to know about relationships

Fri, 2010-09-17 01:27
Aedan Fire
Aedan Fire's picture

Perhaps using persist would be fun. I was thinking maybe use a new keyword that I was working on for my scrapped set. (I am not necroing. Just throwing out an Idea for a new keyword. =) )

Recall <cost>: {param1}, Put the top card of your library into your graveyard: You may play this spell from your graveyard without paying its mana cost.

Would that be an interesting idea with persist?

Edit: By the way, beautiful looking cards kiku!

Edit: Or maybe you could try this keyword?

Spell sling <number>: As you cast this spell, exile an instant or sorcery card from your hand with converted mana cost {param1} or less. You may copy that card and play it without paying its mana cost when this permanent enters or leaves the battlefield.

Fri, 2010-09-17 05:12
copapoc

because we also need the Bastion of suns somthing to wortk with, i advice the 2 Keywords are heavily Spell-focused (they may be usable on other stuff, but not before set 2)

as a suggestion, maybe replicate ?

Fri, 2010-09-17 05:46
lunar
lunar's picture

@ Nutty: I won't be contributing any ideas, but I will still be checking up on this set.

...And thanks for the rename. That's the biggest mark i've left so far on this set. A happy smile

When you die, you lose a very important part of your life.

Fri, 2010-09-17 08:00
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

I like the idea of replicate. We can then move it onto creatures and enchantments in the second set or something.

Anyone else like the idea of Replicate?

I think we need two very different keywords here, though, as the people not willing to use enchantments are then stuck with just one other choice - which would be Replicate/Reflection in thi case.
How about Replicate, and something else that can appear on all card types. I can see we don't have any KEYWORD <number> types yet, only KEYWORD <cost>, or just KEYWORD, so how about something with a number?

Intensify <number> (Discard a card: Put <number> charge counters on this <spell/permanent>. Any player may activate this ability< but only if this spell is on the stack>.)

Spoiler:


Anuttymous the Gathering
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Fri, 2010-09-17 15:36
copapoc

maybe somthing along the lines of this ?

obediance <number> (when this creature enters the battlefield, distribute <number> loyalty counters among any number of target permanents.)

the point is, using loyalty counters outside of PW-ards is somthing i wanted to try out before. else we can just go with charge counters (a nice theme too)

overcharged <number> (when this creature enters the battlefield, distribute <number> charge counters among any number of target permanents.)

It's really up to you nutty, as i'd like them both. obediance would have to have a reason why we use loyalty counters, so charge counters would be a normal way out. anyways. back to my PW ... only need an ultimate

Fri, 2010-09-17 16:50
Guitarweeps
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Is my story to large for anyone to read? lol

I must say that I really like the idea of the suggested Spirit Auras. I think it has cool flavor and it kind of fits along with the Ota story I posted too. It is a nice way to get more utility out of Auras just as long as we don't make this mistake!

I don't think that we neccessarily need to have all mechanics set to start development of cards. I am pretty sure that is not how Wizards always does it.

On the mechanics, here is my humble opinion:

Reflection - Interesting idea but totally broke since the token copies the reflection ability! Oops!

Harvest - Seems like recover from Coldsnap. Might as well just use that.

Recall - I think the self mill would feed into the ability too much.

Replicate - Could be an interesting Bastion of Moons insired mechanic actually. I think it has potential. It could be used on permanents in the second/third set.

Intensify - Doesn't really get me excited to go out and use it.

Obedience - Can't comment unless you mention what loyalty counters would do on creatures.

Overcharged -

Spoiler:
Isn't this the same as "when this enters the battlefield, proliferate"?

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Fri, 2010-09-17 17:21
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Guitarweeps:

Spoiler:
Proliferate can only do one counter per permanent/player and only ones with counters on them already, and has no limit to the number it can target.

This can target only <number> amount, and put one on each, or it can target one and put <number> on that one. Much more versatile.

Any comments on Bloodthirst or Blood price? Perhaps for the second set when driving off the Ota, through the use of the Bastion of Moons?

So, any votes for keywords seen thus far?

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Fri, 2010-09-17 23:03
Guitarweeps
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Bloodthirst seems ok but I think it would be better for the later set if used. Blood Price is not good for a keyword. It could show up on a few cards but it is too negative to keyword and use a lot.

I think Replicate has some good design space to use and I would like to see it applied to permanents in the later sets maybe. It could fill in like the suggested Reflection. So far it has only been used on blue and red cards so there is still much to do with it. Lots of potential!

In fact, here are some possible ideas:

Mind Reap 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Sorcery U
Replicate Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Target player discards a card at random.

Spell Stutter 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant U
Replicate 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2 mana symbol.

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Sat, 2010-09-18 00:39
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Sounds like an idea. I think Replicate would be a nice keyword to return. Everyone okay? We can put it onto permanents in later sets, similar to Landfall hitting instants in the second Zendikar set.

Bloodthirst could appear in the final set, if we have a shift like Rise of the Eldrazi, in terms of mechanics.

Does anyone wish to suggest any more new keywords, or shall we choose which from the ones we've seen?

[edit]
Few ideas I've been thinking about:

In the same way red got artifact creature destruction, due to it having the most artifact destruction, I think white should get enchantment creature destruction due to it having the most antienchantmentness (excluding green cards which designate BOTH artifact and enchantment).

Unravel 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Destroy target enchantment creature.

Perhaps cycling as well? A perfect shift of Molten Frame?

Thoughpick Blue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Sorcery Blue mana symbol
Draw three cards, then discard two cards unless you discard an enchantment card.

Brainwash 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Enchantment - Aura Blue mana symbol
Enchant enchantment
You control enchanted permanent.

Brainwash Mk.II 3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Enchantment - Aura Blue mana symbol
Enchant enchantment
You control enchanted permanent.
If enchanted permanent is attached to another permanent, you control that permanent.
[/edit]

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Sat, 2010-09-18 01:54
Aedan Fire
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Whenever its decided on at least 1 keyword I could start putting some card designs together. Give me a keyword or two and I will start pumping out card ideas. A happy smile

Sat, 2010-09-18 07:36
Guitarweeps
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Unravel is a fine idea but I think it if we end up doing an all enchantment set in the block it should go in there. It can't have cycling since we already have one returning mechanic (I think?!)

I think you meant 'Thoughtpick"?

I think that if everyone does indeed agree on replicate that we can go ahead and start designing cards. The next mechanic can wait a little further in or maybe it would be good to pick a few and design cards to see where the mechanics lead us. We could then take the best fit and just scrap or save the others. Also, we don't have to have another keyword. Alara only had 3 new and 1 returning.

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Sat, 2010-09-18 12:18
Anuttymous
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Well, we don't have to have another mechanic, but I thought it would be nice to have a new mechanic for people who don't like enchantments, and it gives others a chance to put their keyword in the set.
We could just let people do any random keywords they make up, then we'll see which becomes most popular and sic the rest.

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Sat, 2010-09-18 18:01
Guitarweeps
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Ok! Some card ideas!

Kabaru Centaur 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Centaur - C
Ambience - As long as this is enchanted, it gets +1/+1 and cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
2/2

Druid of Elhav 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Elf Druid - R
Tap symbol: Add Green mana symbol to your mana pool for each noncreature enchantment you control.
The Elven druids have spent ages perfecting the art of extrating mana from the Bastion of Suns.
1/3

Axe Thrower 2 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Dwarf Warrior - U
When ~ attacks, you may have ~ deal 2 damage to target creature defending player controls.
2/2

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Sat, 2010-09-18 18:13
Anuttymous
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Kabaru Centaur - I know (SoM:)

might be powerful, but it can still be removed by whatever removal is available. This, however, can't and given something dangerous like Eldrazi Conscription it becomes very powerful. Maybe +1/+1 and trample, or vigilance, or something inconsequential?

Druid of Elhav - I think 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol would be enough, and a 1/1, at rare, considering Bloom Tender's power.

Axe Thrower looks pretty good, although I think just 1 damage, as Akoum Boulderfoot only does 1 and that's only once, and it's an uncommon too. 2 repeatable damage might be too powerful.

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Sat, 2010-09-18 19:54
Guitarweeps
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We really can't use Eldrazi Conscription as a measure of how powerful other effects would interact considering that Eldrazi Conscription is REALLY GOOD!

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Sat, 2010-09-18 21:21
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Stick out your tongue Okay maybe not that, but there are multiple boosting Auras that would make it a powerful common. It might pass at uncommon, but I don't want to have to change it. Just change the troll shroud to something easier to handle. Maybe just normal shroud so that it can't be enchanted more than once.

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Mon, 2010-09-20 08:25
theonlyjett
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I'm tired, but I stumbled upon this idea. May need balancing, but I think it's a good idea anyhow.

Refracting Bond
Enchantment Land Blue mana symbol
(Refracting Bond isn't a spell and does not go on the stack.)
When Refracting Bond enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you pay 1 mana symbol.
Tap symbol: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
“Forming weak bonds to rich lands is not as easy, but often still worthwhile.” — Somebody important

I compared it to Darksteel Ingot for power. It costs two less, but uses a land drop and is more vulnerable. Also, you would really be behind on the mana curve compared to artifact mana sources. All other lands have a drawback for the ability to tap for any mana. The drawback for this one is that you have to pay for it. Bonus points to me for finding another good reason to tap an enchantment. Winking smiley I don't know, I feel like it's on par most nonbasic lands with this ability, but strictly worse than artifact mana sources just cause you stay behind on the curve.

I originally thought about it this way, which looks cool to me, but doesn't fly rules wise. (305.9)Big smile
Refracting Bond 1 mana symbol
Enchantment Land Blue mana symbol
(Refracting Bond isn't a spell and does not go on the stack, but you still must pay 1 mana symbol to play it.)
Tap symbol: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
“Forming weak bonds to rich lands is not as easy, but often still worthwhile.” — Somebody important

Mon, 2010-09-20 12:53
Anuttymous
Anuttymous's picture

Refracting Bond: Without even reading it I can tell you it could very easily be overpowered, being an Enchantment Land. Then reading the rest of it, 1 mana symbol cost and entering tapped is only just enough to justify a nonenchantment land with that ability. For the same reason that the artifact lands in Mirrodin were overpowered, I had decided almost immediately not to include enchantment lands. It would be pointlessly difficult to balance enchantment lands, that no one would really want them much.

I've brainstormed some ideas for dual lands:

DUALLAND
Land Red mana symbol
CARDNAME enters the battlefield tapped.
Tap symbol: Add White mana symbol to your mana pool.
Sacrifice CARDNAME: Add Blue mana symbol to your mana pool.

Maybe "Add White mana symbol or Blue mana symbol" on both?

DUALLAND Mk. II
Land Red mana symbol
CARDNAME enters the battlefield tapped.
Tap symbol: Add Black mana symbol or Red mana symbol to your mana pool.
Ambience - Tap symbol: Add Black mana symbolRed mana symbol to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if CARDNAME is enchanted.

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Mon, 2010-09-20 16:37
Guitarweeps
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Refracting Bond can tap to pay its own cost so it basically just enters tapped which is too good. I don't think that an enchantment land is OP unless we give it some reason to be. So far we are not doing any Metalcraft or Affinity type abilities so I don't think it is trouble in itself. With that said, aside from flavor, why even bother with enchantment lands? What mechanical benefit would it provide?

@Nutty - Neither of those duals are worth being rare. I think they could both be uncommon.

I was thinking about the spirit auras mentioned before and came up with an idea.

Lifebonded Spirit 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Enchantment Creature - Spirit
Lifelink, flying
When ~ is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, if it is a creature, it becomes an Enchantment Aura with "enchant creature" attached to a creature you control.
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has lifelink.
2/2

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Mon, 2010-09-20 22:14
theonlyjett
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I don't believe enchanment lands to be overpowered because in Affinity's day, you would run off color artifact lands as it wouldn't hurt your mana base which was mostly colorless. Because our set isn't artifact or colorless heavy, you can't really make those deck types, so you have to worry about staying on color. Additionally, making a cycle or more than just a couple of different ones wasn't what I had in mind.

The mechanical benefit is that this is an enchantment block, we need a certain number of enchantments, special uses for enchantments, and, like any set, we need some mana fixing. Check, check, and check. When talking about mana fixing within the context of the story of this plane, how would these people do it? Probably with an enchantment of some sort. There's always going to be a new twist on an any color land just like there's always going to be a new take on dual lands. This is just one more of them.

Like I said last night, I was tired, so that whole "it can tap to pay for itself" slipped me. Let's try again.
Refracting Bond
Enchantment Land Red mana symbol
Refracting Bond is not a spell and does not use the stack)
When Refracting Bond enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you pay 2 mana symbol.
Tap symbol: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Forming week bonds to rich lands is not easy, but often worth it. -- Somebody important

It's better than most "any color" lands at rare, but only in a vacuum. It's still subject to enchantment hate which I view as already stronger than land hate (which it is also subject to) in most play environments, not to mention in the context of an enchantment block. Really, I mean this card to be by itself, not as part of a cycle or group of other enchantment lands unless there is a good flavor reason to do it again.
--------
Edited:
About dual lands. The first is common in power rather than rare as written. If you changed it to tap for White mana symbol or Blue mana symbol and sac for White mana symbolBlue mana symbol, it should be rare. As written, you'd need a cycle of ten of these just for friendly colors (cause you'd need the tap for Blue mana symbol, sac for White mana symbol) and that's a lot of card space in one set for something unrelated to enchantments, imho. Also, there's a cycle of common lands in Odyssey that tap for one color, and tap and sac for any one color. I think these are fairly comparable. I like Mk. II just fine, though.
--------
Lifebonded Spirit. Changing card types is rules messy and can be confusing. I believe that's why WotC uses haunt for that sort of card. I had thought about an "enchantment creature -- aura," but the rules say an aura that'a also a creature can't enchant anything and if it does, for some reason, it's to be put in the graveyard. So I believe flip is the best way to go. I think that would be the best for use to do the haunt thing while still using an enchantment in our enchantment block. Also, I think someone on these forums had used flip cards to do new licids, which are pretty much the same idea, only with different flip triggers.

Lifebonded Spirit 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Enchantment Creature — Spirit Blue mana symbol
Lifelink, flying
When Lifebonded Spirit is put into the graveyard from play, you may flip it and put in unto the battlefield enchanting target creature.
2/2
---Flip---
Deathbonded Spirit
Enchantment -- Spirit Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has lifelink.

I actually really like this implementation of that card and the Spirit Aura idea. Also, future cards in this group don't have to be enchantment creatures, either.

Lifelong Friend 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature -- Human Soldier Blue mana symbol
When Lifelong Friend is put into the graveyard from play, you may flip it and put in unto the battlefield enchanting target creature.
"I'll always have your back." -- Someone who wishes they could put this flavor text on the card but there's not enough room on flips!
2/2
---Flip---
Eternal Friend
Enchantment -- Spirit Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and first strike.