Agralnat: The Completed Set

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Sat, 2010-07-17 07:19
Kiku
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Logline: Harness the power of pure mana itself on the exotic plane of Agralnat
Story Information: Agralnat is the source of all growth in the multiverse, and because it is at the epicenter of that magic, everything on it constantly evolves. For this reason the plane is a training ground for planeswalkers, who wish to evolve their own abilities. There are many races living on the plane, largely bestial in nature, but as of yet, it is uninhabited by human life. Chandra Nalaar has come here after the events that unfolded on Zendikar to rest a while, and develop her spark under the raw mana. Two native planeswalkers, Kamsa the elf and Trith the frost dragon, welcome her. The three form an alliance in order to harness the power of Agralnat, and protect the plane from any other planeswalkers. As the story unfolds, we will see how this unsteady alliance plays it's part in the epic tale of Agralnat.
Flavor and mechanical themes:The main flavor within this set is to capture the constant growth of the denizens of Agralnat. Mechanically this features the returning mechanic level-up and the new mechanics cultivate and experience.
Edit: Updated to include the full downloadable set, which can be found here: http://www.mediafire.com/?lsvdc978zbjb2od#2

Enjoy the finished set everyone, the story will unfold in it's second part, Agralnat Unleashed, which will start to be revealed on this forum in February.

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Sat, 2010-07-17 11:17
Disposable Hero
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The crds look great and fun - but something's a mite off. Your forst doesn't have the green mana symbol watermark - you should prob ably add that in. Also, Grzzly Bears has no flavor text, which creaturwes with no abilities often do. Also, I think it's fairly overpowered Winking smiley .

Sat, 2010-07-17 14:48
A Tactical Waffle
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All your cards look great so far, but like DH mentiond, you will want a watermark on that forest and you will want to right flavor for Grizzly Bears (or make it full art).

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Sat, 2010-07-17 16:19
rasz
rasz's picture

wouldn't exiling a planeswalker remove all loyalty counters on it?? and a planeswalker cannot be targeted, rather the player who controls the planeswalker gets targeted and just redirected to the planeswalker?? just a thought.....

though I like your experience theme, a little fine tuning on mana costs to not overpower it

"your blood shall fuel my pride," ----Ras Alsgethi

Spoiler:

Sat, 2010-07-17 16:42
Nikeyeia
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You can't target a planeswalker with a lava spike, but you can target the player and redirect the damage. Therefore, if a card says "target planeswalker", it should be able to target planeswalkers. And exiling a planeswalker removes all counters from it, as exiled cards can't have counters on them... (Or at least, they don't retain the counters from the battlefield)

(∩_∩)

Sat, 2010-07-17 16:55
rasz
rasz's picture

therefore his planeswalkers shadowmeld ability is not quite par to existing MTG rules??

"your blood shall fuel my pride," ----Ras Alsgethi

Spoiler:

Sat, 2010-07-17 17:25
Kiku
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Thanks to everyone for the comments so far.
To address your comments, I have added a watermark onto the forest, and grizzly bears will have flavor text, I just haven't written flavor text for any of my cards yet. As for the shadowmeld ability that is on the planeswalker in my signature, The planeswalker returns to the battlefield at the end of turn with their printed starting loyalty, due to comp rule 208.1. Finally I am interested to hear what you specifically think is overpowered? The level numbers on all of my levelers are still experimental and can be changed if you think they are to low. Which experience cards need a higher CMC?

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Sat, 2010-07-17 17:48
The Figment

I don't think the levels are overpowered. They seem right to me.

I think you could lower the costs of the Snowmarble Frost Storm and the Northhollow Rite by 1 mana symbol each; they look rather subpar as is. Note that the spells should be at least (almost) worth using before experience. In a way, it's similar to the Allies in Zendikar. I do like the Aldbourne Familiar.

Sat, 2010-07-17 18:00
Anuttymous
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Warrior of Calen - turn 2 3/3 is a bit powerful at common. Maybe level 1-2 2/2 and level 3 3/3.
Decomposing Zombie - Maybe too powerful for common. I'd make it level 1-2 and then level 3+ and have it as a 4/4 at first.
Grove of Souls - Pretty expensive, especially considering Ajani's Mantra. Could easily cost G or be level 1-2 and level 3+.
Evolving Sword - confusing wording, but seems perfectly good. Problem is, you'd have to have the equip cost on each level, otherwise you'd no longer be able to equip at level 1 and up. And should be 3+.

Anyway, it all looks quite good. Not sure about Experience, so I'd like to know: How many cards have Experience on them? You can just check 'Uses' in Keywords, if you didn't know.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Sat, 2010-07-17 18:09
rasz
rasz's picture

hmmm... now that I took a second look,, Aurora is right though I'd stick with the same mana costs you gave them,, btw this forum really is great I'm learning new things even though I don't play anymore I still love the game.

@kiku: oh that was your signature haha still new to the forums kinda getting lost here and there

"your blood shall fuel my pride," ----Ras Alsgethi

Spoiler:

Sat, 2010-07-17 18:12
Kiku
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@Anuttymous: Warrior of Calen is meant to be really aggressive, I was going to play test it to see if it was just too fast. I'm definitely considering making it be 1-2 and 3+ instead. For decomposing Zombie, I don't think that it is too powerful at all because all your opponent has to do is play a creature and he immediately goes down to being a 3/2 that can't block. The opponent just has to have a creature that costs 3 or less to play on their turn and you will never get to attack with him as a 5/4. Grove of souls is meant to be one of the weaker card, like a mindless nulls. Remember on level-up cards that anything in the first text box is static, and are always on the card regardless of level, so evolving sword can be equipped even after moving up in level.

Number of green cards with experience:6, all the other colors are not finalized yet but it should be roughly the same number. There might be roughly 40 cards with experience in the whole set.

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Sat, 2010-07-17 18:37
Anuttymous
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Fair enough with Decomposing Zombie, though I do think it should be a lower level that it becomes 2/1.
And I forgot static abilities carried from the first text box - otherwise it would only be able to level up once Stick out your tongue
Experience seems fairly decent, I can't see it being too overpowered. What's the highest Experience, I think I remember you saying there were rares with higher?

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Sat, 2010-07-17 18:50
Kiku
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I do agree that the zombie could become his weakeast form at a lower level, but the numbers are still really rough right now. I changed it to 1-3 for middle and 4+ for final. Since you asked about the possibilities of higher experience cards, here is an interesting one I made for draft.

Spoiler:

This is the only card that I have designed yet with more than 1 experience, and I don't plan on making any that go higher than 2. All the cards that have experience 2 and other effects are rare.

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Sat, 2010-07-17 19:16
rasz
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harrowing experience could also be a Green mana symbol casting cost being at uncommon,, or do you have rares with devastating abilities that are affected by experience?

"your blood shall fuel my pride," ----Ras Alsgethi

Spoiler:

Sat, 2010-07-17 21:26
Guitarweeps
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Nice job on the cards. I think that cultivate and experience are turning out great (I have seen them before in other parts of the forums).

Tether - Just so you know, I think you could get away with costing as Pasifism.
Warrior of Calan - I agree with 1-2, 3+
Frost Storm - Could get crazy. In the right deck this could be a Timewalk so some playtesting might be in order.
Northollow Rite - Looks good.
Decomposing Warrior - I must say I absolutely love this card. It is just oozing with flavor IMO. Interesting use of leveling as a... um... "deleveler"???
Growing Flame - I think I commented enough on this one elsewhere. I think what cultivate has become is great.
Grove of Souls - I think it is great as is.
Oakbarrow Elf - Another great use of the levelers. I am impressed. Although, I do think that the last panel should be 4+ and 1/2 or 1/3. Remember it cost you no mana to get to that level so it shouldn't give you too much extra P/T. You just play lands which you would do anyways.
Grizzly Bears - I agree with Hero. WAY overpowered. But really, wizards has made it clear that they don't print creatures with "real" names anymore which means that we only get Runeclaw Bears
Evolving Sword - I think as a common it would be kind of cool if the nonleveled version gives no equip bonus. Meaning you have to level it to make it usefull. Kind of like you have to forge the sword to use it. What do you think?
Aldbourne Familiar - This is fairly costed if it is the only experience card and quickly becomes way undercosted with any others. I would actually suggest 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol. At least 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol though.
Spirit of Life and Death - Great, great, great!
Deepdell's Vengeance - This might be my favorite card. Just awesome.
Avatar - Well if this is the only creature you cast you get a total of 25 power for seven mana. I am seeing a little math problem here. I would either drop the tokens or a least have it give only a +1/+1 bonus.

I must say that I am really impressed with your take on levelers. First you are using levelers that are very simple and have low costs. I thought that missed the mark in ROE by making so many levelers that have high leveling costs and become very large in the end. Some of yours remain quite small in the end but are still efficient and effective. And I love the nonpayment leveling that you do here. Looking forward to more.

Check out my updated set hub.

Sat, 2010-07-17 21:57
Kiku
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@guitarweeps: thank you for all of these comments, they will be very helpful while i design the rest of the set.now to address what you said.
Tether:I really think pacifism is more powerful than people give it credit for, i'd like a bit more input before I cost this down to 1W, I hate to make cards that are strictly better than already powerful and loved cards.
Warrior of Calen: You're definitely right here, my original costing was way too aggressive.
Frost Storm: I thought about this possibility, I think I could fix the time walk problem if I change it to nonland permanents, thoughts?
Norhthollow rite: Nothing to say here, some people said it could cost less, but every set has to have a couple weak cards, so I think it works
Decomposing Warrior: Glad you like it, I didn't actually think it was that flavorful myself, but It's a fun card.
Growing Flame: Yep, cultivate has been covered a lot, going to post a few more of the cards with it soon, thanks for the templating help btw.
Grove of Souls: Another card like the rite, I like to put a few multiplayer cards in every set I make, this is one.
Oakbarrow Elf: I totally forgot that this was a play it and forget it card, I changed the last panel according to your suggestions. It was a little crazy for not really costing anything more than G. I guess I just like to make creatures have 4 toughness to avoid bolt Stick out your tongue.
Grizzly bears: Lol, this is too OP, but how to nerf it? I chose grizzly by the way because my set focuses on natural power more than magical(and I hate runeclaw bears,not as cute). This fills a similar role to glory seeker in ROE. how powerful are vanillas in an ever changing environment?
Evolving Sword: I was worried that this could be extremely powerful, and you just told me how to fix it, thanks! Would you still have the equip and level costs be the same though on a version that originally granted no bonus?
Aldbourne familiar: I think this could be very powerful in the right deck. You're probably right that this should cost 2UU. What if instead it still cost 3 but has printed P/T of 0/0. That would work right?
Spirit of life and death: Glad you like it, nothing to say here.
Deepdell's vengeance: I was really happy with this card. I'm curious to hear what fair level numbers on this one would be. I just kind of put in random level counts. What do you think is fair?
Avatar: Yep 25 power for 7 mana. seems fair. You're absolutely right though, it needs a change. I really want to keep the tokens though, so I might change the bonus to +1/+1. In all honesty I forgot to even think about what would happen when you play this card, assuming it would always get doom blade'd or path to exiled on the spot.

On a side note there should be another pack up tonight, hopefully.

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Sun, 2010-07-18 05:48
Guitarweeps
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Tether - Well, either is correct. I would just stick to your preference.
Frost Storm - Yes, that would work. Not sure why I didn't just think of suggesting that. Could probably cost 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol in that case.
Decomposing Warrior - I said it was flavorful without actually thinking about it. Let me rephrase now. The idea is flavorful. The execution actually makes no sense. Why does playing live creatures cause a zombie to decompose. I dunno, I still like it though.
Grizzly Bears - If you want the set draftable this is a common bomb. It can't stay...
Evolving Sword - Yes
Albourne Familiar - Well, 3 for a 1/1 is useless. Like Aurora said, we don't want cards that are useless without experience. Although, maybe one or two would be ok.
Deepdell's Vengeance - Honestly didn't look at the level numbers, but I think they are good. The only problem is that being a six mana card this comes late game and you may not be able to lose 8 life anymore. I was thinking it would be cool to have the final panel with P/T equal to the level counters but their is no room for that.
Avatar - You are probably right, but we can't design OP creatures just assuming that they will killed. I mean look at Baneslayer Angel; pretty easy to kill but is owning standard. Also, think about limited too. Not always a ton of removal to have. I agree with keeping the tokens.

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2010-07-18 07:00
Kiku
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At some point I will edit the first post with all of the cards that I changed based off of your comments, thank you for all the help so far!
Now for the second booster pack of Agralnat.

Spoiler:
Rules Tip:Experience Many cards in the Agralnat set feature a new keyword called experience. Whenever you cast a spell with this keyword you gain the amount of experience listed on the card. Remember that even if your spell is countered you still gain the experience for casting it, unless your opponent also manages to counter the triggered ability. Keep track of your experience with a die or pen and paper, but remember that they are not counters and cannot be removed by cards like vampire hexmage. In this way experience is treated similarly to your life, and must be kept track of at all times. Experience is a way to show your progression in the game and will make the spells you cast and the creatures you command all the more powerful.
Spoiler:

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Sun, 2010-07-18 07:10
Wavy
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There is already a card named Indomitable Will

Nice artwork choices btw

Sun, 2010-07-18 07:18
Kiku
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oops, my mistake. I totally forgot to check my cardnames against gatherer. I've just changed the name to Indomitable Courage.

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Sun, 2010-07-18 07:23
Wavy
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eh, it's bound to happen

hey, there is no Juuhana on deviantart. Is the art credit a typo perchance? (sorry for pointing these things out, lol)

Sun, 2010-07-18 07:29
Kiku
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It is in fact a typo the actual artist name is Juuhanna (I missed an n). I found the picture here http://juuhanna.deviantart.com/art/Kitsune-40309113?q=boost:popular+kitsune&qo=35. Don't worry about it Wavy, I am bound to miss a few things, and it nice to have people to double check stuff for you. Glad you like the art I found btw.

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Sun, 2010-07-18 09:49
Anuttymous
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Thieving Wrin - Powerful sideboard card. Not sure about the making it unblockable. I think it should be unblockable if you have more than 4 experience or something like that.
Withclake Minbending - Maybe cost 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbol with the Experience. Seems too easy.
Overcautious Skreeling - I like the idea, but this could make things very powerful. I'd say up the cost, and return only when targeted.
Raywynne Ascendent - That's 18 life. Unless you're against a life gain deck, they're almost dead. Look at Bloodchief Ascension. I've seen from use that although it can be brought out early, it takes a while to get it with counters on. I think the levels for this one are too steep. And the trigger is too steep too.
Primal Insticts - Maybe make it an instant, so that you can use it to make a creature attack, and you can kill it?
Buttermoor Symbiote - This seems easily to be a "1 mana symbol: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~" or things similarly cheap. I think it should cost a lot more, or become rare or something.
Calen's Archer - Quite nice, I like it, although maybe make it 1 or 2 damage at level 1-2, or make it lower P/T.

Overall, I think most of them were pretty good, just a couple that stood out as overpowered. Keep it up, I'm lovin' it.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Sun, 2010-07-18 11:00
Nikeyeia
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Shouldn't the phantom be unblockable at all times? Instead of just level 0?

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Sun, 2010-07-18 11:12
Anuttymous
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Oh, no, things in the first text box carry through levels, otherwise the creature would only have the level up ability at level 0, once it's level 1 it wouldn't work.

Anuttymous the Gathering
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Sun, 2010-07-18 15:26
Bass

I really like Experience (though it should give you experience *counters*). It's a cool idea that casting a particular spell lets you level up too.

I think though, your set is too complex. You have a bunch of levelling cards across creatures, enchantments, and artifacts, and they all have different triggers for levelling up.

Landfall could do anything WotC wanted, but at common, they kept it to just giving a creature +2/+2. When they did Levelers, they kept it just to level up. If you wanted to complicate levelling so it happened as a trigger instead of a cost (which is totally fine), I'd recommend that ALL your common levellers level in the same way. Any variations you leave to higher rarities (like the awesome Decomposing Zombie).

Secondly, an equipment with level up is not going to work. You're going to be moving that card around and attaching it to creatures, but it's going to have level counters on it which will make it horribly fiddly and confusing. People stack the attached equipment (and auras) underneath the card. Where do the level counters go? Well, now you've got to set them aside or move the sword further out. Which is annoying, the counters might spill over (and since you've so many levellers this will be *bad*) and the equipment has three levels to it so you now have to remember which one it's using even though, because it's attached, it's not really visible.

Umezawa's Jitte put counters on itself, but you removed them for the effect, while this equipment will only gather them over time. Granted, it'll only get three (and the Jitte often had more than that), but I think it's very annoying for little benefit (at least Jitte was powerful enough to warrent the fiddliness).

Cultivate is a brilliant idea too; I love the idea of a "reverse Suspend", but it's horribly templated and really complicated. I think it can be made a lot easier.

This is how you've written it; Cultivate G (You may exile this card from your hand. If it is exiled this way, you may cast it as though it were in your hand and it has “G: Put a growth counter on this. Activate this ability only as a sorcery.)

"You may exile this card from your hand." When? You can only suspend a card when you could cast it, but this doesn't specify. Can I cultivate in response to a Duress?

"If it is exiled this way..." The problem here is, say I pay G and Cultivate it. I don't ever put any growth counters on it. The next turn, my opponent plays Haunting Echoes and I have a Cultivate in my graveyard, and now I have four exiled copies of this card. Five turns later, I decide to play the one I cultivated. My opponent says, "No, I Haunting Echoed that card" and I say, "Yeah, but I cultivated one copy the turn before" "I don't remember this" and blah blah blah. You need to remember which is which. I suggest that to exile it, you have to pay the Cultivate cost and you exile it with a charge counter. This lets you remember which exiled cards were cultivated and which ones weren't.

I'd suggest; "Cultivate Green mana symbol (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay Green mana symbol and exile it with a growth counter on it. Any time you could cast this, you may pay :symG" to put a growth counter on it or cast it for its mana cost.)"

I think that's the clearest way to template it that clears up potentially confusing issues. A happy smile

Sun, 2010-07-18 17:01
Guitarweeps
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Indomitable Courage - Just awesome. Great card concept. I love it.
Playful Kitsune - Believe it or not this triggers on itself. I only know because River Kelpie was pretty much my favorite card and it triggers on itself coming from the graveyard. Same concept. Of course fix is simple "another creature".
Theiving Wrin - Very interesting. Nice.
Mindbending - I think it is good as is. Black mana symbol for one discard is usually considered overcosted.
Overcatious Skreeling - I agree with previous comments. LOVE the picture.
Raywynne Ascendant - Doesn't feel common to me. Too much going on.
Primal Instincts - Making this instant will make it much mroe interesting and cool.
Surging Growth - Sure.
Buttermoor Symbiot - Cool card. Picture looks red?
Soul Reflecting Sword - Like the ability, not the name. Soul Reflecting... sounds cool... and then... Sword. Kind of disappointing. How about Rapier or Scimitar?
Calen's Archer - I think first level up should be 1 or 2 damage.
Phantom - I like it.
Nature's Reclamation - Pretty good.
Gaurdian of Flowerhill - Really cool. I like the leveling trigger here. And she can become a psuedo-Baneslayer.

On Bass's comments.
- I disagree with the comments on the leveling equipment. As said, Umezawa's Jitte never hurt anybody (ok not true, I mean caused counters confusion...). I wouldn't foresee any confusion coming up from this. I don't have any elaborate prook I just don't foresee that being an issue.
- Cultivate - I don't think a distinction is needed. The rules on an exiled card that is linked to another card prohibit a player from confusing something exiled like this and the same card exiled in some other manner. If the scenerio described did happen then both players have actually violated the rules. I mean it is as simple as having different stacks in the exile zone, or even having them on opposite sides of the playing area. I do kind of like the idea of your suggested wording though.
- Bass is right on witht he levelers. I didn't think of this at all since I was so excited seeing the new leveling. It is too much going on. It would be better to have a common cycle that triggers the same way and then a handful of uncommons that are similar and then save the weird stuff for rare and mythic. Good call Bass. Unfortunately, this foils some of my favorites. A sad 'frowny'

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2010-07-18 17:45
rasz
rasz's picture

I also like the cultivate theme, but yes I had that issue with it, can I exile it anytime since it doesn't have a cost?
If I was to reword it I'd put a cost on cultivate and at the beginning of upkeep for the counters like this
Cultivate Green mana symbol (You may pay Green mana symbol, if you do exile this card. You may cast this card as though it were from your hand. At the beginning of your upkeep you may put a cultivate counter on this card.)
I guess that would be it or did I mess it up more?

"your blood shall fuel my pride," ----Ras Alsgethi

Spoiler:

Sun, 2010-07-18 19:37
Kiku
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@Anuttymous:
Thieving Wrin: I like your idea, and I changed it to “if you have two or more experience counters ~ is unblockable”. Is two not enough? Four just sounded really steep
Mindbending: I agree with guitarweeps here. Discard for 1 is very underpowered, so adding experience doesn’t require a higher CMC IMO.
Overcautious: Upped cost to 2R, when you say targeted, do you mean just by spells and abilities? Are you saying to get rid of the attack trigger as well?
Raywynne Ascendant: You’re right; I forgot to check that completely. I have done an overhaul of this card that will be at the bottom of this.
Instincts: made an instant.
Buttermoor symbiote: another good point, there is a new version at the bottom of this post.
Archer: changed to 1 damage in 1-2 level.
@Bass:
Level-up: Thank you for some excellent insight in this comment. I think that while my leveler cards at common do have many different triggers, they are all relatively easy things to keep track of in the course of a normal game. So far at common we have seen cards that ask you to: keep track of creatures entering the battlefield (not a problem to keep track of in most cases), keep track of when you play a land (I think we are pretty god at this with the recent landfall), and keep track of life loss by opponents (I realized my error here and this card is now uncommon). I think if I keep the common triggers to things we are very aware of normally, I could pull off triggered levelers. I understand the concern for new players, but you’ll notice none of these triggers are optional, so you can’t “miss” putting the counter on.
Equipment: As far as equipment go, it is good idea to keep them visible at all times to avoid possible play errors anyways, so that you remember that they are there. Also there would not be a ton of fiddling involved, equipment do not tap with the creature they are equipped too, so I don’t see a terrible problem here.
Cultivate: I like the way you have it worded, but it messes up some of the math that I have done so far. I would like to post both versions within the card clinic to see if yours is more intuitive and works fully within the rules. I know what I have now does work within the rules, but it could be less complicated.
@Guitarweeps:
Raywynne Ascendant: I’ve moved this card to uncommon
Primal instincts: changed to instant
Buttermoor Symbiote: wasn’t perfectly happy with the picture either
Soul Reflecting Sword: Done, new name is scimitar
Calen’s Archer: changed to 1 damage
Guardian of Flowerhill: Yep, this is desighned to be a little baneslayer (plus vigilance). Glad you like it
@rasz: your wording is pretty good, but you missed the ability to pay for new counters as many times as you want. It is not an upkeep trigger where you get a counter; you can simply pay for as many counters as you need over the course of several turns. You did come up with an interesting reverse suspend mechanic there though.

@All: A few big changes based off of your comments:

Spoiler:

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Sun, 2010-07-18 20:00
Bass

kikushadowblades wrote:
Level-up: Thank you for some excellent insight in this comment. I think that while my leveler cards at common do have many different triggers, they are all relatively easy things to keep track of in the course of a normal game. So far at common we have seen cards that ask you to: keep track of creatures entering the battlefield (not a problem to keep track of in most cases), keep track of when you play a land (I think we are pretty god at this with the recent landfall), and keep track of life loss by opponents (I realized my error here and this card is now uncommon). I think if I keep the common triggers to things we are very aware of normally, I could pull off triggered levelers. I understand the concern for new players, but you’ll notice none of these triggers are optional, so you can’t “miss” putting the counter on.

The problem isn't that keeping track of lands entering the battlefield (or creatures or your opponent losing life) is too difficult to understand, but rather that to use all of them becomes very complicated. If you look at Wizards' development articles post-Morningtide, they point out that Lorwyn/Morningtide was a VERY simple block; much simpler than Time Spiral, but it was so complex because there were just too many things going on. No one thing was difficult to get, but combined, there were too many variables. Your commons need to be dead simple because people rack up tons of them and have to play them without great familiarity, and if some commons work one way and a bunch of other similar commons work another, it becomes too confusing.

kikushadowblades wrote:
Equipment: As far as equipment go, it is good idea to keep them visible at all times to avoid possible play errors anyways, so that you remember that they are there. Also there would not be a ton of fiddling involved, equipment do not tap with the creature they are equipped too, so I don’t see a terrible problem here.

I think it would be annoying, but I seem to be in a bit of a minority here. It could just be a pet peeve of mine.

kikushadowblades wrote:
Cultivate: I like the way you have it worded, but it messes up some of the math that I have done so far. I would like to post both versions within the card clinic to see if yours is more intuitive and works fully within the rules. I know what I have now does work within the rules, but it could be less complicated.

It doesn't mess up any of your maths. In your original wording, you could exile it for free, but without growth counters. You then paid the cultivate cost to give it growth counters. My suggestion says that you can't exile it without paying for the first counter. The first counter isn't free. It should work exactly as you intended. A happy smile

Sun, 2010-07-18 20:12
Wavy
Wavy's picture

regarding Bass's comment, I think equipment with counters is ok, they can just be placed adjacent to the equipped creature, but yes it could be a problem if the equipped creature has counters.

But then again how is it any worse than a permanent having two different types of counters on it? That is much worse. Such as a leveler with +1/+1 counters.

(Note that personally I don't like counters in general)

Sun, 2010-07-18 21:41
Kiku
Creative Direction Award
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@Bass: Okay, now I understand the problem. Having several triggers at once makes the game much more complicated, I agree with you on that. Should the triggers at common all be set to whenever a creature enters the battlefield? That is at least one I can put some variation on with "under your control" and "under an opponents control". I will definetely work on a common cycle using just one trigger. What trigger(s) are going to work to make it less complicated? I also now understand what you meant with cultivate, I didn't fully understand your reminder text the first time. In that case your wording may be better. I'll just check your wording out for rules security now.

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Sun, 2010-07-18 21:47
The Figment

If you want to tie it in a bit with your experience, I'd say "Whenever [you/a player] casts a spell". Of course, some level numbers will have to be adjusted a bit, as it's relatively easy to level things up quickly if you build your deck around that.

Sun, 2010-07-18 21:51
Kiku
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Thats an excellent trigger idea, Thanks Aurora, might work best on blue cards specifically.

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Sun, 2010-07-18 23:08
Guitarweeps
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Backtracking a bit, but I just realized something. When you cast a spell you have to have legal targets to do so, right? For instance, you cannot cast Doom Blade if there are only black creatures on the battlefield. Now, what happens if you cast the Frost Storm. It gives an experience when you cast it; however, you have already announced targets when you cast it right? Am I wrong on this?

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Sun, 2010-07-18 23:25
The Figment

Hm, that is true. However, I'm not sure how to word this accurately without being ambiguous.

Mon, 2010-07-19 06:14
Kiku
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That could be a problem for some spells, Is there any way to make it trigger before you choose targets?
Important edit: Pack three
As scheduled, the third pack of Agralnat

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Mon, 2010-07-19 07:34
TEA_DEMON
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Hey this set is cool man, I really like the Cultivate keyword. Although I kinda have a problem with Warden of Body and Soul, especially when compared to Soul Warden. WoBaS is two mana for two life per creature and a 1/3 whereas Soul Warden is a 1/1 for 1 mana with 1 life gain. I think you should probably restrict WoBaS to only your own creatures.

Mon, 2010-07-19 16:08
windandfire
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Just a minor note, your Garruk says in his -1 ability "up to one land card." You can just say "a land card" instead since you can always choose to not find anything during a search.

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Mon, 2010-07-19 17:13
rasz
rasz's picture

@kiku I now like your cultivate theme, more balanced than before where you just had to exile it without any cost. and the 0 ability on garruk, you could do something like this "draw a card for each creature that entered the battlefield this turn, just a suggestion.

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Mon, 2010-07-19 17:27
Lord of 13
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Garruk: Why not make his [0] ability say "Draw a card for each creature spell you cast this turn"? Players will only activate it after casting spells.
[-1] should be "search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library" -> This is so that shuffling is done after searching, rather than (theoretically Stick out your tongue) simultaneously.
[-8] should be reworded similarly.

Growing Howl: The ability should be "Put X 1/1 white Fox creature tokens"
Sorceress: "When ~ ETB, choose one - draw a card; or gain 1 experience"
Mental Assault: "...If you do, that player discards that card. Otherwise, you may..." I might actually make this a choose one spell.
Pyromancer: "When a creature ETB under an opponent's control, put a level counter on ~" and "T: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player". Remember, damage has to come from a source. Ditto for all of your burn spells. Also, pinging is powerful in limited. I would bump this up to an uncommon.
Flame: "~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player"
Sludge: "Whenever you gain experience, put a +1/+1 counter on ~" -> Because "gain an experience" only works when you gain exactly 1 experience.
Silverdell Apprentice: Pretty strong card, IMO. I would bump up its CMC to 2.
Vengeful Return: "Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield." -> Cards enter the battlefield under your control, by default.
Warden: As earlier noted, over powered. Stick out your tongue Maybe CMC 4? Or make it a 1/2 and trigger only for your creatures.

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Mon, 2010-07-19 17:39
Kiku
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@TEA_DEMON: I thought warden of body and soul would be controversial. I always thought soul warden/essence warden were somewhat underpowered so I am curious to get a couple opinions on the power level of this card.
@Windandfire: Thank you, I forgot that "up to" is not required for search. I just wanted the ability to work even when you are out of lands, and didn’t know about the search rule.
@rasz: glad you like the newer cultivate. I want to keep Garruk’s current wording, because it references a famously powerful green card, glimpse of nature. He is also much stronger with the current wording, because it lets comboelves go off (nettle sentinel and heritage druid).
@Lo13: Thanks for all the wording advice, again the 0 is a reference to glimpse of nature, and will be more powerful in comboelves. This is similar to the 0 of jace the mindsculptor, which referenced brainstorm. I would like to keep mental assault as is so that you get to see their hand, then decide whether to take a nonland card from it or a exiled cultivate card. The apprentice is very strong, but it is no stronger than cursecatcher, and is a terrible topdeck in the late game. I'mm pretty sure vengeful return is right, look at rise from the grave, cards which can take a creature from any graveyard have to specify whose control they come under. I'd like a couple more opinions on the warden before I decide anything.

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Mon, 2010-07-19 18:18
rasz
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-at the topic of WoBaS you could change CC to Green mana symbolGreen mana symbol or make it 1/2 that for me would be fare enough

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Mon, 2010-07-19 19:57
Anuttymous
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'Weeps: I thought you could cast a spell without a legal target. You can't cast a spell with an illegal target. As with illegal actions, if you cast a spell on a shrouded creature, the card returns to your hand. But if you cast a spell and the target gains shroud, the card doesn't return to your hand, it fizzles, right? So why would ... Hmm... I think I just proved myself wrong...

Growing Howl - Seems very overpowered. On about turn 5, this can get you about 10 1/1s. Seems mental if you ask me. Unless it's meant to produce half as many, in which case you'd get about 3. That seems fair.
Seeds of Subversion - Again, twice the number. Seems overpowered. Turn 2: Exile with 1 counter. Turn 3: Add another counter, then cast from exile. 4 cards. Unless you meant half, in which case it would be 1. That would seem fairer.
Silverdell Apprentice - Nothing wrong with it. I just love it so much I thought I'd tell you I did. It's so clever! Although I do think it should stay 1/1 or 1/2 max. But nothing really that wrong.
Warden of Body and Soul - Like already said, I think whenever a creature enters under your control would be alright. Maybe it should be white, dunno.
Garruk - Not sure about -8. I think -6 would be enough, easily. There aren't many decks that require lots of land later in the game. I think they should enter tapped as well, just to stop X cost for one turn, give the opponent a chance. If a -6 then tapped would be best. But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

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Mon, 2010-07-19 21:00
Disposable Hero
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About the Cultivate mechanic: It's well-designed, but the spells using it are too overly-reliant on the growth counters. Perhaps a few spells that give your spells extra growth counters could be utilized as "niche" cards, or cards acting in a manner interacting with growth counters similar to Eldrazi Spawn-generating instants and sorceries from Rise of the Eldrazi (e.g. Corpsehatch) that function seperately from growth counters but can also be used in growth-reliant decks. An alternative could be cards that get better with Cultivate. Here's an exammple:

Cultivated Bomb
1 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Sorcery Blue mana symbol
Cultivate Red mana symbol
Cultivated Bomb deals X damage to each creature and player, where X is 2 plus the number of growth counters on Cultivated Bomb.

Mon, 2010-07-19 21:58
Guitarweeps
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Growing Howl - Hmmmm... could be too much of a bomb I think. Not in constructed of course but it could own in limited. Not sure.
Windrider of Calen - Nice.
Aldbourne Sorceress - That would have to be a strong incentive to take the experience on this choice.
Mental Assault - This shouldn't be a choose one becuase you want to look at the hand and then have options.
Pyromancer - I think the second panel could be 1-3.
Scorching Flame - I would go instant on this unless you have a good amount of instant burn already.
Silverdell Apprentice - Nice, counter a spell for 1. This would be an interesting card to play.
Vengeful Return - Nice
Warden - Agree with comments
Garruk - +1 is good, but I would actually switch the 0 and -1. Five mana for land searching is not super great so I don't think that it nets -1. Glimpse of Nature is a great card and will usually net at least one card per turn used which would justify a -1 in my opinion. Maybe even lower the cost to 2GG. Also, the ultimate is kind of bland to me. It doesn't say "I win". I would prefer a land animation ultimate for Garruk.

@Anuttymous - Yeah, can't even cast a spell without targets. I know from rulings I have seen and also MTGO. MTGO is a great way to learn rules because it forces them on you! Anyways, it does not give you the option to cast Doom Blade if there are no nonblack creatures. Hope that clarifies.

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Tue, 2010-07-20 06:43
Kiku
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Specific cards:
Growing Howl: Yikes, I really have to remember to take cards out for a quick playtest before I post them. I can’t believe that I missed the ability to make 10 1/1’s on turn 5. I don’t think taking it down to exactly the number of counters on it will stop it from being a huge bomb either. Any ideas on how to balance this one?
Seeds of subversion: Right again Annutymous, I will try changing it to the number of counters, rather than twice. Now it is a mind rot, that can become much stronger. More balanced?
Garruk: Lots to think on here. I have switched the 0 and the -1, and changed his CMC to 4. I have kept -8 and the lands coming into play untapped. It should be noted that his ultimate will end the game, if you get to your next turn. All you have to do is activate Garruk’s glimpse ability and you can draw and play almost your entire deck. If the ultimate seems lackluster, I would be open to changing it, but I like the very subtle combo out version.
Warden of Body and Soul: I really want to keep the ability to gain 2 life when a creature enters the battlefield. I don’t want to limit to just your creatures, I could make it cost 3 CMC but right now I have as GG for a 1/2. This will be a tough one to hit the balance for.
Pyromancer: Is now 1-3, at guitarweeps advice. I could certainly make this card be uncommon, but am keeping it at common for now. (gotta playtest this at some point, seriously)
Scorching Flame: I like this as a sorcery to pay homage to volcanic hammer. If it seems a little underpowered now, I could easily make it an instant to make it stronger.
@DH: I am going to do some work to try and make more spells like the ones you showed that have the ability to be cast without first cultivating. It was my honest intention to make most cultivate cards like these, but I failed. I will work to make all (or nearly all) cards with cultivate castable without using the mechanic.
To everyone: There should be a big update soon including the above change, as well as cards that have been altered based off of everyone comments.

EDIT: Pack four is now up right here

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Tue, 2010-07-20 08:17
rasz
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other than Master Necromancers "graveyard from play" to "graveyard from the battlefield" good work and by the way I was to use master necromancers art also ehehe...

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Tue, 2010-07-20 09:48
Anuttymous
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Quote:
Yeah, can't even cast a spell without targets. I know from rulings I have seen and also MTGO. MTGO is a great way to learn rules because it forces them on you! Anyways, it does not give you the option to cast Doom Blade if there are no nonblack creatures. Hope that clarifies.

Well, that ruins my whole, cast a bunch of 1 cost instants and sorceries to boost Kiln Fiend... Damnit.

Kiku, I think Garruk should go down to -6 or -7 anyway, especially if you make the second part of the combo cost another -1 now. You'd have to get him up to about 9 your way which could take too long. Not to mention once people know the combo, Garruk will be totally marauded, so the combo will be very unusable. I think it should be -6, and have him start on 4 maybe.

Agent of Ascension: Underpowered. Venerated Teacher has the same mana cost and P/T but puts 2 counter on ALL level up creatures. I think it it's for one permanent, maybe put 3 on it? More balanced in comparison to putting 2 on them all?
Ascendent of Calen: So clearly underpowered I can't imagine this was an accident. Still, I think level 6 or 7 would've sufficed.
Shoreline Reflection: That's 5 experience. From what I've seen, that's a lot. If you don't get this out early, it's a complete dud. Maybe level 3 highest, and make it a 4/3, or something.
Nature's Care: I'd say 2 counters on 2 permanents. Otherwise, for 1 more mana you could put 2 on all, with Venerated Teacher.
Stream of Knowledge: I'd make it cost 4 mana symbolBlue mana symbol, as for 6 mana you can just use Flow of Ideas, which is very likely to get you more cards.
Master Necromancer: Maybe up the final level. Bit too easy to destroy 4 creatures. Maybe 5 or 6.

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Tue, 2010-07-20 18:14
Guitarweeps
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BTW, I think it is awesome that Garruk used Glimpse of Nature. And I concur on lower ultimate, not too much lower though.

Anyways, some more comments...

Agent of Ascension - Agree with comments but I suggest a 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol 2/2 that puts two counters on a creature.
Ascendant of Calen - I like that it takes so much to get there but the level up is cheap. It works for me.
Shoreline Reflection - I think that you meant for this to trigger whenever experience is gained? Or is it for each experience gained? Meaning if you gain two experience is it supposed to give you two level counters or just one? It is worded wrong for both so here goes...
"Whenever you gain experience, put a level counter on ~."
"Whenever you gain experience, put that many level counters on ~."
Experienced Wolf - I'm sorry but that name is kind of lame.
Nature's Care - Boring compared to Venerated Teacher I would make it Green mana symbol and instant to give it some kick. It should also be uncommon because you wouldn't want a ton of these in draft.
Cloak of Familiar - Hmmm... I would cost it like Hedron Matrix. It could have some powerful implications in the right deck and you should pay for it.
Aroma of Flowerhill - Make the cultivate White mana symbol and drop the "one plus".
Stinkdrinker - Interesting how it gets "worse" then better. I like it.
Master Necromancer - Whew! You get a lot for your 1 mana. But it has to stick around and if Scuttle Mob isn't overpowered neither is this.

@Anuttymous - Yes, it is true. But what spells are you casting in red that you can't find targets for? Most just need a face to point their red hot fingers at!

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Tue, 2010-07-20 21:26
Anuttymous
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Originally it was red/blue, with things like Aura Finesse then draw into another one mana thing. Now it seems I'll actually have to have auras in there. Ah well. Thanks for pointing it out, though. Good to know now, rather than when I'm screwed at a standard event.

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