Muraganda Unleashed - a community project

continued...
Thu, 2010-12-16 15:02
copapoc

Okay, maybe na summary of the current themes and keywords would be usefull?

Keywords:
Primal - [Effect] if only basic lands where used to play this card.
-> nothing to say here

Overbear <number> (This creature cannot be blocked by creatures with power <number> or less.
-> like this too

Wastage <number> (As an additional cost to casting CARDNAME, exile <number> cards from your graveyard)
-> now this one. i'd like too see it cut. it just kinda hopped on halfwhere without anyone noticing. on top of that,its a negative card, and most likely this space could be used for mor usefull keywords or mechanics

Morph.
-> obviously one of the most awsome things in the set

<type>pulse (Whenever you cast a <type> spell, return this card from your graveyard to your hand)
-> Don't know about this one. if someone can convince me why where using this, then i would be verry intrested. for now it just feels like a slightly neglected mechanic ...

And i will be back |.|

Fri, 2010-12-17 00:45
Guitarweeps
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This weekend sometime I am going to do a massive update of the setfile, projected projects (hmmm that reads funny), and first post. So standby.

Additionally, I second the removal of wastage. I don't think it fits our world and it is really just a sucky version of delve anyways. I think we have only one card with it anyways. Plus, it works against pulse.

Also, we have been keeping morph mostly in blue and white. I think we should expand it to all colors. Morph was initially all colors and it doesn't make sense to limit it when it returns. We can have higher numbers in blue and white but it should be present in all. Also, it hurts the "bluffing" factor of morph if it is limited in color. Also, we need to consider what NEW stuff we can do with morph. It should come back with a kick. I was thinking that ally color morph activations would be kind of cool and a good design challenge.

I have mixed feelings about pulse. It is kind of cool but is SO easy to get overpowered. Not really sure about the flavor of it either. It also pushes the set into a tribal direction. It might be better to have it as an effect on a few cards rather than a keyworded mechanic.

EDIT: Before I do some major updates I want to get a poll on something. I am proposing a wording change for morph. Recently we ahve seen wording that was more intuitive on occasion such as "kicked" and one of my favorites, Obsidian Fireheart

So to cut to the chase, I want to replace "turned face up" with "morphed". It is more intuitive and sounds better. Best part is that everyone will know what it really means without having to look up new rules.

So we would see things like "When ~ is morphed, <effect>." and "Whenever a card is morphed, <effect>."

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2010-12-17 03:16
shark400

I third the removal of wastage. I never felt like it fit with the set as a whole. If we ever do an expansion (Muraganda Unraveled?)I think we should put it in but not for this set.

Pulse was always a tribal-oriented ability. If we find a way to balance it and restrict it to tribal-oriented cards it won't be too powerful. Tribal should be a sub-theme of Muraganda but not a major theme.

As for morph, I support using it across all colors, but sparingly. Morph isn't a theme for green, black, or red, but it doesn't mean we can't design morph cards for those colors.

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Fri, 2010-12-17 03:56
Picks-at-Flies
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I never understood why wastage is even in discussion. I mentioned it once on the first page as a vague idea, it was trashed on page 4 with my agreement and miraculously was back in the discussions now! Kill it, now!

Maybe we should leave pulse as an unkeyworded ability?

I love the idea of Mr Weep's morph phrasing, but I don't think it works in practice unless "morphed" becomes universally synonymous with "turned face up". Would new players understand that?

I never did find out: do people like/not like the homarid/cephalids in blue?

Fri, 2010-12-17 06:16
copapoc

i like the wording. maybe some player will think the effect triggers when they play it, think twice about morph [a good thing] and then realize its not that way, but that would be a worst case scenario. i like the new morph wording ^^

pulse as just an ability is fine for me, as i didn't find it keyword-worthy

Fri, 2010-12-17 07:08
Guitarweeps
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The change from "turned face up" to "morphed" would require a rules change and explanation with the release of the set (which we would not actually do). But Wizards did it with "if the kicker cost was paid" to "kicked" and it worked out pretty well. It was simple enough for most people to understand and they made sure to explain it constantly with the release so I never knew of a confused player. Anyone who was I am sure it was cleared up fairly quickly. I think the same would apply here. It may confuse a few players the first time but would be cleared up quickly. Some might think that playing the creature face down is morphed but I think that also would be cleared up fairly quickly as it is a pretty intuitive thing. In fact, I think that this is easier to grasp than "kicked". The biggest difference would be that this change would not be on every morph card like the kicker one appeared on every kicker card.

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2010-12-19 01:33
Guitarweeps
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Double posted to bump and update.

The first page has been updated with mechanics and new set file.
Here is the old set file for comparison.
And here is the new set file. (Also in my sig)

Here is a summary of the cuts with some explainations if you wish to see. Probably the most major was the cut of Imperiosaur. See comments.

Spoiler:
All wastage cards.
Exploding Hatchling – A creature with morph that has blue firebreathing the turn it is morphed? Cut
Tidal Terror – Blue firebreathing again? And a ton of text on a common.
Emperiosaur – I know that this is the foundation for a large part of the set, but I don’t want primal to be a negative keyword. This use of it is a restriction where we want to use it to create options and offer rewards for certain ways to play the card. It is still the future sighted representation of the set but is not included.
Brain Beating
Horizontal Visions/Shelled Cave – primal is not in blue and this is kind of like primal.
Thog, Grand Witch-Doctor – Removed because there are no sacrifice spells. It now did nothing.
Spoils into Change – Creates infinite mana combo with Tithing Elemental and Unseen Spy with a sac outlet.
Astribe Palm Runner/Elite Hunter – Already have Young Allosaur and Astribe Reconnoiterer at strong one drops.

And here is a summary of the changes (besides minor wording and creature type)

Spoiler:
Reworded “morphing”.
Un-keworded pulse.
Footprint baby – Made uncommon, increased cost, and made sorcery.
Boistrous Wind Sprite – Removed “you don’t control”. More options is better. Players can choose to boost their own creatures or give it to opposing creatures.
Calcification/Clutter the Mind – Reworded like Ixidron
Current Prowler – Changed it to a 1/1 with +1/+0 and +0/+1 to look better.
Elder Saurian – Made the +1/+1 a counter vice nothing.
Flood Serpent – Increased cost as five mana for a 5/5 is too good even with a drawback.
Irakai – Changed the second ability as it was to powerful. Changed ultimate to have wording from Gideon.
Knifewielder – Changed cost to 2W
Life of Muraganda – Upped cost to 3GGG. The effect completely changes the game state. Upgraded wording to say tokens.
Runner’s Boots – Upgraded wording, added combat damage trigger, and made rare.
Sacrificial Priest – Removed toughness from lifegain.
Shellbacked Mother – Made uncommon for a lot of text.
Windborn Angel – Made it a combat damage to player trigger vice creature. Lowered power to 3.

Now what do we need?

1. We have four main themes/mechanics so it wouldn't hurt to have another, most likely something that would primarily appear on non-creature. Don't have to brainstorm for it.
2. It is a good time to bring up ideas for the black sacrificial themes. How will this be shown mechanically? Flavorfully? Throw out some ideas. I had quite a few ideas on the previous page if you want to comment on those.
3. I will come up with a list of "cards we need" but for now just keep throwing out some ideas!
4. New use for morph.

Also, I will be doing another update of the set file this weekend to include some of the cards suggested in the late stages that weren't in the file.... well at least my file.

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2010-12-19 08:09
shark400

Blood of Kings
3BBB
Enchantment
Blue mana symbol
Whenever you sacrifice a creature, target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn

Total Eclipse
2WW (not sure what color to make this. feel free to make changes)
Instant
Red mana symbol
Players can't sacrifice creatures until end of turn

Fanatic Prophet
1B
Creature- Human
Colorless mana symbol
When Fanatic Prophet is sacrificed, you draw a card and target player discards a card
1/2

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Sun, 2010-12-19 09:14
Picks-at-Flies
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Guitarweeps: I get you don't like blue "firebreathing", yet it's not unprecedented. Wizards has variously expressed regrets at Time Spiral but Viscerid Deepwalker (a Homarid no less) was not among them. However, I would prefer we had an answer to which version of tidal we might go for which was the real point of submitting those cards. I keep looking back at this thread and finding unanswered question...

Sun, 2010-12-19 10:45
Guitarweeps
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Total Ecplipse should be an enchantment not in instant.

On the blue firebreathing I really don't like the one that is used as only on the turn it is morphed just because it is kind of lame and has lots of text for little benefit. Tidal Terror is much better. I would say that if we do something like this it should be in the form of Water Servant.

There were quite a few things left unanswered so maybe we should address those before moving forward. If someone could post some of the options for the tidal subtheme that would be cool. I will if nobody has when I have more than a few minutes.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2010-12-23 02:13
shark400

For the tidal subtheme, how about making cards that switch power and toughness? It's familiar territory for blue and I think it would work for some of the creatures in Muraganda.

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Mon, 2010-12-27 12:54
Guitarweeps
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Ok everyone. My computer crashed and is completely dead now. I will be sporatic at best for a few weeks but will ensure this project stays mobile. Until then the immediate issues are two things.

1. Tidal theme. I think this has a lot of promise and flavor for our setting. So far we have seen.

a. Switching P/T
b. Effects based on the number of Islands controlled. Sometimes based off odd/even.
c. Pump effects.
d. P/T reverse pump effects like Water Servant.
e. I think it would be cool to have some effects that care about the amount of blue mana you have somehow.

I think that was it but correct me if I missed something. Please give your comments. And remember since this is a loose theme we could conceivably use them all!

2. I would like to revisit the Camarid token theme. I have a slight problem with it because blue well never gets token generation really. Very rarely. I think that it fits the setting though as the set has a token theme and the Camarid/Homarid relationship fits the primal theme as well. I think we should limit the generation from what we have. And have it only at uncommon and rare. Thoughts?

3. I know I said two but I got ahead of myself.
I was thinking about a mechanic that represented the raw power of the mana present on Muraganda.That led me to this idea:

Revitalize (Untap up to X lands, where X is equal to the converted mana cost of this spell).

The land of Muraganda is lush and beautiful. But in more ways than its physical properties. The mana on Muraganda regenerates much faster for reuse than on other planes. This is one of the factors that draw planeswalkers to Muraganda hoping to harness this potent mana.
This is a inspired by the untap land spells from Urza's Saga. The effect takes place when it resolves, although I am not sure if the wording is clear enough on that. I thought it would work well if you are playing non-basics and primal cards too. Comments?

Check out my updated set hub.

Mon, 2010-12-27 21:13
elmdor
elmdor's picture

1. Tidal theme.
I like the switch and p/t reverse pump. I think that effects based on the number (even or odd) of islands under your control are cool, but they look too red.

2: Camarid.
Maybe blue could produce counters with spells, like Eldrazi Spawns but Camarids. On permanents, they would have ETB effect that creates N tokens, then an ability that requires Camarid tributes.

3: Revitalize.
Revitalize N (To revitalize N, untap up to N lands)

Rewind 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Blue mana symbol
Counter target spell, then revitalize 4. (To revitalize 4, untap up to four lands)

Great action keyword. The main problem is that "free spells" are considered very powerful, maybe too powerful.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Tue, 2010-12-28 00:13
Guitarweeps
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They are indeed powerful, but with careful design they can be balanced. I think Time Spiral was the only one that got really crazy but that was due to a combination of cards as well. As long as we don't have that type of thing we should be ok. Also, if we use your version then it wouldn't have to be "free".

Check out my updated set hub.

Tue, 2010-12-28 07:05
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

I know I haven't finished Lumehaven's "special effect", but I offered one for this set too. And, I had an idea. Cave paintings, similar to the "clock watermark" seen here: http://mtg.pifro.com/download/file.php?id=2606

There could be primitive scenes drawn out in the textbox in a similar black transparency. There could even be a few different ones. Thoughts?

Tue, 2010-12-28 07:09
shark400

That would be awesome

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Wed, 2010-12-29 02:43
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Well, I've been practicing drawing authentic looking cave figures on my Wacom (new for christmas!). I'm modeling after this from Lascaux: http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles/a172_lascaux1.jpg

I believe I've got humans down.

So, any requests for scenes?

Wed, 2010-12-29 02:45
New Kind of Christ
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nonexistant image

Wed, 2010-12-29 02:46
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Hmm. Well, if others have trouble, it is the first result in a google images search for "cave paintings". Has curvy humans shooting arrows at deer or something.

Wed, 2011-01-05 02:14
shark400

The best way to balance revitalize is to simply make the numbers less than the converted mana cost of the card. For examlpe, a card with converted mana cost of four could have revitalize 2. That would still be a solid ability on commons and uncommons without becoming too powerful.

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Wed, 2011-01-05 14:43
elmdor
elmdor's picture

I think that every common/uncommon card* should have revitalize N, with N equal to either the amount of colorless mana in its mana cost or the amount of colored mana in its mana cost. Which one do you prefer?
*not every c/u card in the set, but every c/u card with revitalize Stick out your tongue

Revitabear 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature -- Bear Colorless mana symbol
When Revitabear enters the battlefield, revitalize 1.
2/2

Rewind #2 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Counter target spell. Revitalize 2.

The problem with Revitalize is that it feels green, while green has already over 9000 mechanics. Wich color could also have this ability? Do you want to make cycles, with a revitalizer for each color?

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Wed, 2011-01-05 23:53
Guitarweeps
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@Pichoro - I get nothing with the link either.

The Revitalize N idea is actually really cool because it becomes an action keyword and could potentially be used on triggered or activated effects not just spell text.

For example:

Revitabear 2.0 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Bear
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, revitalize 1.
2/2

I would say that revitalize feels green and secondary blue and white. I think we could do it in all colors with the flavor of the mana backing the concept? Hmmm.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2011-01-06 08:50
copapoc

I think all colors, with N equal to CMC-1 or CMC-2 [depends on CMC of the card, a card with CMC3 woud have revialize 2, while on with CMC 6 would have revitalize 4] also, i don't wich this to be madatory. [players should read their cards.

also, this:

manasurgance 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
instant Colorless mana symbol
revitalize 4 (remindertext)

Sat, 2011-01-08 23:27
Guitarweeps
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Not to mention that i doubt players would make the connection between the revitalize number and the casting cost either colorless or colored. And if they wouldn't then why do it? To start I would like to have no set limitations and then we can impose them later after seeing some OP manifestations. Here are a few starting ideas to look over and see if this is even a good mechanic to have.

Spark Shower 1 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
~ deals 2 damage to target creature. Revitalize 2.

Azearian Slave 2 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Human Colorless mana symbol
Sacrifice ~: Revitalize 3.
2/1

Vitalized Growth 2 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Sorcery Blue mana symbol
Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Revitalize 2.

Return to Sender 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Revitalize 4.

Roshod, Druid Ascent 2 mana symbolGreen mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Elf Druid Red mana symbol
Forestwalk
Whenever a creature you control is tapped, revitalize 1.
2/3

Lightvise 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Tap target creature. Revitalize 2.

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2011-01-12 06:34
shark400

I like these. Although it is a good point that Revitalize feels too green and we already have a ton of green abilities in the set.
Muraganda is primarily a set focused on minimalism in terms of design. I should have mentioned that this was my goal earlier, but the designs you guys submitted were so great that I didn't feel like I needed to. Note that I'm not trying to change the theme of the set. We should definitely keep most of the cards we already have. But the set should start feeling more minimalist, and hence more prehistoric
Revitalize is great. Let's keep it. But I feel like we should be refining what we have instead of constantly adding new ideas, themes, and keywords. Those can go in the expansion Big smile
@Guitarweeps: If it's okay with you, let's focus on minimalism as a design goal from now on. It will make the set feel much cooler and more unique.

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Wed, 2011-01-12 21:43
Guitarweeps
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As that makes sense for many of the themes (creatures with no abilties, primal, sacrificial theme, etc) we have to include some more complex items in there as well. If not, then we are isolating a certain audience and basically kind of catering to only newer players. A theme that does that probably shouldn't be pursued. Again, I think it will work for the majority of the set especially with good designing but let us not limit ourselves from a great theme or card that adds complexity to the mix.

I think we are on the same page though.

EDIT:

Alright, I want to keep this moving in a forward motion. I would like anyone who is intersted in this project; old or new, to design a handful of cards that support a "tidal" theme. You can select from the below ideas compiled from all the ideas. Please post some ideas before next Wed and we will start discussion on the results.

1. Swithing P/T
2. Effects which derive from the number of Islands you control (or on the battlefield). Could use a threshold, odd or even, or even ETB. Use your creative energies.
3. Pump effects.
4. Reverse pump effects. Like Water Servant.
5. Effects that are based on the amount of blue mana in your mana pool.

I'll start with some ideas:

Spoiler:
Azol, Tidekeeper 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard Red mana symbol
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control an even number of Islands, you may draw a card.
2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol: Counter target spell if it has a converted mana cost equal to the amount of blue mana in your mana pool.
He spent day and night staring out at the tide. They thought that he was trying to figure out how to out to the sea. He was trying to bring the sea into him.
2/4

Water Caturn 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Homarid Blue mana symbol
Blue mana symbol: ~ gets -1/+1 until end of turn.
3/3

Tidal Presence 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Enchantement Red mana symbol
Blue mana symbol: Creatures you control get +1/-1 until end of turn.
Blue mana symbol: Creatures you control get -1/+1 until end of turn.
The rising of the moon and sun effect the tide. The tide effects everything else.

Undertow Blue mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Target creature gets -X/-0 until end of turn, where X is equal to the amount of blue mana in your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Shelled Trowback 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Homarid Red mana symbol
Whenever ~ attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is equal to the amount of blue mana in your mana pool.
Trowbacks can be deceiving as they use the tide to hide their massive bodies.8
2/3

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2011-01-13 18:08
shark400

Tidal Flood 3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Blue mana symbol
Switch the power and toughness of each creature on the battlefield until end of turn

Tide Monster 4 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Elemental Serpent Blue mana symbol
3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolTap symbol:Turn target face-down creature with Morph face-up, then turn target face-up creature with Morph face-down
3/4

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Thu, 2011-01-13 18:54
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

Bah, I had almost finished my reply to this when my colleagues turned off my computer A sad &#039;frowny&#039; This is more of a pro-con list at the moment, it's all my brain can think of.

2. Island Threshold
Pro: As a theme, this is my favourite because it's elegant, enhances the 'basic lands matter' theme and can trigger multiple cards simultaneously.
Cons: It requires lots of islands, making it harder in multicolour decks.

1. Switching P/T
Pro: It works, and is simple compared to the 3. and 4. It's also appropriate to crabs.
Con: If we have multiple cards with this effect, the combat maths becomes incredibly complicated. If we have ways to trigger it simultaneously, this could be viable, but it also limits design space.

3. Pump
Pro: It's been done before, on Homarids no less.
Con: It's not really very blue, especially en mass. It suffers from the problems of 1.

4. Reverse Pump
Pro: it's a very blue effect, and appropriate to crabs
Con: This is in effect a more complicated version of 1, and if we are running with a theme I would suggest a flat switch is easier to track.

5. Mana in mana pool
Pro: It's novel, and it has a simple trigger and it can be flipped easily.
Con: I'm not sure if it's a simple enough concept for commons, and has wierd effects.
Basically this is a bit unknown to me.

---
Of the cards suggested:
# Water Caturn demonstrates the cons of 4
# Tidal Presence demonstrates a card that works, but also that it wouldn't work as a theme
# Undertow shows how a card shouldn't be made (seriously... it's a one drop effect that acts like an X spell)
# Shelled Trowback shows one way it could be implemented that could actually create tension. Kudos for making it only check once.
# Tidal Flood again demonstrates that the effect works as a single card, but again doesn't indicate it would make a theme.

Of course, it doesn't need to be a major theme. Imagine if we put a card like Tidal Presence at uncommon, anyone who wanted to draft it would almost certainly be able to, and the idea of tides would be 'covered'.

Thu, 2011-01-13 20:40
Guitarweeps
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Nice one Shark. That reminds me! I forgot category 6! Which is whatever way you can convey the flavor than what was mentioned.

@Picks - Good points. I'll have more to say a little later but I think a decent takeaway might be that a tidal "theme" is too strong a way to put it. It should be more like a world element to convey through flavor and card effects. It isn't really a theme pursay.

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2011-01-14 17:50
shark400

Agreed. I like the idea of having tidal-type cards for blue and I think that it fits in well with the morph theme we already have. But I also think we have enough keywords as is, so adding anything like "Tidal-Target creature gets +X/-X until end of turn" wouldn't help. Tidal should be more like a feeling that the cards have when you play them. Also the names of the blue cards in this set can be themed around tides, which would be cool.

"It's the poison that in measures brings illuminating vision; it's the knowing with a wink that we expect in Southern women; it's the wolf that knows which root to dig to save itself; it's the octopus that crawls back to the sea" - R.E.M.

Sun, 2011-01-30 13:40
Guitarweeps
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Ok, sorry for the long absence. Once my computer that I just ordered gets in we can move a little faster. I can't even pull up MSE files right now!Anyways, based on the discussion, I think that the tidal theme should effect the flavor and effects of the blue cards but not as mechanics across the board. Kind of like the dinos; they are the main theme but without a mechanic attached. Each dino is different and influenced by the flavor of the general idea of dinosaurs. That is kind of what I get from this set which is cool. Some of the examples of what we could use for this are above: flipped P/T, cares about Islands, cares about blue mana (which also goes along with caring about mana from basics), and unmorphing; my favorite of which is the unmorphing.

I intended to start taking card ideas at this point and give you pieces of the design skeleton to use but I have to wait for my computer so instead I would like to discuss ideas on the black sacrifice theme. I think it has potential but we need some original approaches with it. It is based of an Azearian tribe who believe that sacrifices help them with their crops, hunts, and battles. Any failure in these areas are attributed to lacking sacrifices. With this said, I want to bleed this a little bit in green because I don't like the idea of a theme being present in only one color. Red would make sense too, but I am not looking to create super-Jund.

So, I would like to see some ideas that support this. Remember to think outside the box and they don't just have to say "sacrifice a creature: effect".

The important thing again is going to be supporting the flavor of an Aztec-like tribe more so than a "sacrifice" theme.

Check out my updated set hub.

Mon, 2011-02-07 13:31
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Examples of a sacrifice theme:

Favor of Azear Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Enchantment Red mana symbol
Sacrifice an attacking creature: Gain control of Favor of Azear and put a favor counter on it. Any player may activate this ability but only once each turn.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 for each favor counter on Favor of Azear.

Altar of Sacrifice 3 mana symbol
Artifact Blue mana symbol
Tap symbol, Sacrifice a creature: Regenerate target creature. When it regenerates this turn, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Mon, 2011-02-07 19:50
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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I like the idea behind Favor of Azear, although Azearia is the name of the tribe. Maybe it would be good to define what they are trying to appease. I like how it changes according to sacrificing; reminds me of limited with Jinxed Idol. I think that it would be good to make it more exciting and splashy, maybe kind of like Eldrazi Monument. This could be a really cool part of the set instead of just an interesting rare.

Alter of Sacrifice is also interesting. The counter part was a nice cool add.

Check out my updated set hub.

Mon, 2011-02-21 20:56
elmdor
elmdor's picture

@Guitarweeps: Do you have your new computer?
@everyone: Are you ready to continue this project?

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Mon, 2011-02-21 22:53
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Not yet, but according to the site later this week is the max it is supposed to be here. Also, I will be out of work for awhile due to a surgery. That will mean I will have time to get this back on its feet. I plan on having desing goals for each week in addition to just posting whatever ideas you get so the everything will keep moving. Sorry for the delay on my part.

Anyways, I was thinking about how to have interaction with the sacrificing but without simply adding sac costs onto things. What if you have some graveyard effects based off the idea of Anger? I think it fits the flavor really well and would play really well too. And it would interact great outside of our environment as well. We can't have too many though otherwise the graveyard would be too confusing.

Blood Priest 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Human Shaman Blue mana symbol
Deathtouch
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if ~ is in your graveyard, you gain 1 life.
2/2

Harvest Channeler 3 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Human Shaman Red mana symbol
Tap symbol, sacrifice a creature: Add two mana of any combination of the sacrificed creature's colors to your mana pool.
As long as ~ is in your graveyard, you may tap Forests for any color mana.
2/2

Enslaved Detriment 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Sorcery Blue mana symbol
Exile target creature. Put a 1/1 black creature token onto the battlefield under your control with all creature types of the exiled creature.
The first thing to do with your newest enslaved is to destroy their willpower. Without that even the most powerful being stands no chance of uprise. - Azearian Slavemaster

Check out my updated set hub.

Tue, 2011-02-22 19:39
elmdor
elmdor's picture

A light graveyard theme is a nice idea. We can make creatures with "when is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" effects instead of "when enters the battlefield" ones.
I like Blood Priest, but I don't like Harvest Channeler's graveyard effect... Enslaved Detriment is a nice card that creates tokens with no abilities, but could also work as an enchantment.

Since we have primal, which increases a spell's power if you only use mana from basic lands, we need a good amount of mana-producing nonbasic lands (10-15), or every spell will automatically have primal triggered. Which effects should they have? Generic mana fixers, or maybe token spawners to help vanilla theme?

Random card ideas:

Spoiler:
Guardian Spirisaur 3 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature -- Spirit Lizard Blue mana symbol
A long as -this- is in your graveyard, creatures you control have "1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol: This creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Activate this ability only once per turn.".
2/2
-Now I notice that it breaks Muraganda Petroglyphs... A sad &#039;frowny&#039;

Break Eggs 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Counter target creature spell. If it's a Lizard spell, revitalize 2.
-Useful if we are going tribal. Otherwise, it can be removed.

Tidal Flow 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Return target creature to its owner's hand. Put a 1/1 blue Camarid creature token onto the battlefield.
-Blue tokens to support vanilla theme?

Destruction Rain 3 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Sorcery Blue mana symbol
Choose one -- Destroy target nonbasic land; or destroy target basic land.
Primal -- You may choose both if only mana produced by basic lands was spent to cast -this-.

Sparkling Something 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by creatures with abilities this turn. Revitalize 2.

Corpse Worm Black mana symbol
Creature -- Worm Colorless mana symbol
When -this- enters the battlefield, exile target creature card in a graveyard.
When -this- is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, exile target creature card in a graveyard.
1/1
-It may be too much for a common, but a graveyard theme needs some graveyard exilers.

Mating Grounds
Land Blue mana symbol
Tap symbol: Add 1 mana symbol to your mana pool.
2 mana symbolGreen mana symbolGreen mana symbol, Tap symbol, Tap two untapped Lizards you control: Put a 2/2 green Lizard creature token onto the battlefield.
-I remember seeing a similar card somewhere, this is my fixed version.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Fri, 2011-03-04 16:13
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Yes, we had the discussion about the nonbasic lands. At the moment we have a rare cycle of nonbasics. They should be in the latest set file (I can't access set files until my new computer comes in). We could do some light ally colored mana fixers but remember that we are not making many gold or multicolor themes cards here. I would like a common cycle maybe as well.

I am liking the graveyard theme more and more but we do have to keep it to only a handful of cards to avoid zone confusion.

Guardian Spirisaur - Instead of granting the ability to creatures, what about "1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Use this ablity only once per turn and only if ~ is in your graveyard."

Break Eggs - We have a slight tribal undertone but this seems weird to me. Let me sit on it for awhile.

Tidal Flow - Well, we had kind of decided on the blue tokens being uncommon and higher and very few just because blue is not a token color. This one might pass though. I might just up it to uncommon.

Destruction Rain - I really like the idea of modal spells with a primal trigger to do both. That is super cool. you are on to something here.

Sparkling Something - See this is an example of using this effect without making it overpowered.

Corpse Worm - I think just a leaves battlefield trigger is enough for simplicities sake. Maybe he could snack on two or three cards.

Mating Grounds - I don't think the version we had was OP. I'll check it again once I am back in the set file.

Beast Within 3 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Instant Colorless mana symbol
Choose one - Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains trample until end of turn; or target creature gets +3/+3 and is indestructible until end of turn.
Primal - As long as only mana produced from basic lands was spent to cast this, do both.

Harbinger of Accursed 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature - Human Blue mana symbol
Intimidate
Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol, exile ~ from your graveyard: Exile target creature.
2/2

EDIT: Updated front post. Just minor theme updates.

EDIT 2: Got my computer in finally. Once I get it set up I will update our set file and see what we need to get this set back in motion.

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2011-03-04 20:06
elmdor
elmdor's picture

That's great. I don't remember much of what we have done...

Scout-cleric 3 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature -- Human Scout (Cleric?) Colorless mana symbol
Morph 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
When -this- is morphed, prevent all damage that would be dealt to it this turn.
3/2

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Sun, 2011-03-06 22:14
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Alright, while I am busy trying to get the logistics of my computer and the set file figured out...

All who are interested in this project please post a nonbasic common land cycle. Put it in spoilers so that it doesn't clutter. Remember that they cannot be strictly better than basic lands themselves and that they need to be useful enough to compete with the primal ability slot. On Friday, we will begin discussion on the cards from the cycles posted and see which ones may be put in the file.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2011-03-10 16:30
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Some ideas for the cycles:

Spoiler:
Idea 1
Land Colorless mana symbol
Tap symbol: Add 1 mana symbol to your mana pool.
Morph 1 mana symbol
When -this- is morphed, add White mana symbolWhite mana symbol to your mana pool.

Spoiler:
Idea 2
Land Colorless mana symbol
-this- enters the battlefield tapped.
Tap symbol: Add White mana symbol to your mana pool. You gain 1 life.

I need to think more to create something better.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Thu, 2011-03-10 21:24
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Those are actually pretty good spring boards. I am especially intrigued by Idea 1. Idea 2 seems a bit strong as you can basically gain a life every turn for free since you will always use it whether you need the mana or not. I have some ideas though...

Idea 1.2 as dual land cycle.

Spoiler:

Land Colorless mana symbol
Tap symbol: Add 1 mana symbol to your mana pool.
Morph 2 mana symbol
When ~ is morphed, you may add White mana symbolWhite mana symbol, Blue mana symbolBlue mana symbol, or White mana symbolBlue mana symbol to your mana pool. (or just the last option)

Idea 2.2 with slight tweak

Spoiler:
Land Colorless mana symbol
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
Tap symbol: Add White mana symbol to your mana pool.
At the beginning of your end step, if ~ is untapped, you may gain 1 life.

This makes it slightly less strong but still allows the chance to gain life every turn. Works well with instants and flash as well as revitilize which is cool.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2011-03-10 21:36
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Idea 2.2 looks great!

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Wed, 2011-03-23 22:56
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Alright the set file has been updated here.

Additions

Spoiler:
Dawn of the Dinosaurs
Cliff Raptor
Dragon of the Dawn
Terrifying Formless
Primal Growth (the enchant land aura)
Weathered Crab
Total Eclipse
Fanatic Prophet (with minor tweaks as a common)
Tidal Flood
Tidal Presence as Undercurrents
Shelled Trowback
Alter of Sacrifice as Alter of Lifeblood
Blood Priest
Enslaved Detriment as an enchant creature
Gaurdian Spirisaur with slight tweak
Tidal Flow as Undertow at uncommon
Corpse Worm
Scout Cleric as Recon Vangaurd as a sweeping damage prevention effect
Azearian Witch
Bone Tribute as uncommon and sorcery
Nightstalker
Bloodthirsty Ravager
Curse of the Damned
Shields of Stone

I have not yet added the revitalize cards as I am not convinced we have tightened that idea yet.

Discussion points

Spoiler:
Favor of Azear Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Enchantment R
Sacrifice an attacking creature: Gain control of Favor of Azear and put a favor counter on it. Any player may activate this ability but only once each turn.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 for each favor counter on Favor of Azear.

I really like this idea but I would like to see a cleaner implementation. Any ideas? Specifically, the sacrifice attacking creature seems wierd since you wouldn't sacrifice a body in the midst of a battle.

Altar of Sacrifice 3 mana symbol
Artifact
Tap symbol, Sacrifice a creature: Regenerate target creature. When it regenerates this turn, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

I would like to have a few different alters each with different functions. That is why I changed the name here. I also separated the effect into one activated and one triggered. I think it would be cool to have this be common on all the alters as it offers a common standpoint. I like the idea that the alter not only grants something during the sacrifice but can give continual benefit just for being there as well which kind of offers more of a omnipotent being presence to it.

Blood of Kings 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Enchantment R
Whenever you sacrifice a creature, target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn

I think this touches on the idea of sacrifices bring battle victories. This; however, is very expensive and should it have a sacrifice outlet you think?

Possible morph lands - Been pondering this a lot cause I really like it and it really helps portray "untamed" land of Muraganda. What about the following?

Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped
Tap symbol: Add Blue mana symbol or White mana symbol to your mana pool.
Morph Blue mana symbolBlue mana symbol or White mana symbolWhite mana symbol

Works as a more proficient mana fixer. Too powerful?

EDIT: I have a new updated set file. We are now entering the next phase. We have already gotten the basis of our world down and a lot of design ideas have given us a foundation. I am starting the design skeleton to help direct us towards the finish. You may notice the "copyright" column is actually for the card codes which can be helpful for designing the rest of the set. The set file has the skeleton for the commons up. Will get the uncommons and rares up later. Just remember the skeleton is meant to help guide us but we can still design cards that don't "fit" into the skeleton. If it fits Muraganda we can make room.

Alright, while I finish this I want a simple assignment. Post a few vanilla creatures with really flavorful names and flavor text. This site is a good resource for figuring some dino names. Just make some stuff up as we don't intend on using a lot of existing dino names. We will utilize generalities aka pteradons, mammoths, mastodons, saurus, raptor, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT 3/23 - I guess that wasn't very exciting. I have a few cards for this:

Spoiler:
Cliff Raptor changed to a 3/2 for 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol so as not to compete with Burgoening Flame
Cliff Shrieker changed to Aetiopsidon

Trowback Hatchling 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Homarid Colorless mana symbol
During the hatchling's birthtrek from their nest to the sea, predators try to pick them off but choke to death on the impenetrable birthshells.[i]
1/4

Pyrosaur 4 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Lizard Colorless mana symbol
[i]Primal — When Pyrosaurus enters the battlefield, if only mana from basic lands was spent to cast it, it deals 3 damage to target creature.
3/3

But what we do need is to get out some of the rare dinos. Submit some or all of the following

Large Deep Sea Creature for either a mythic or rare slot
Large flying Pteradon for rare
Large red Dino with overbear for rare (already have Dragon of the Dawn at mythic)

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2011-03-25 22:48
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Cards
Tsunami Leviathan 5 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature -- Leviathan Red mana symbol
As long as Tsunami Leviathan is tapped, other creatures get +2/-2.
As long as Tsunami Leviathan is untapped, other creatures get -2/+2.
(Sacrifice an Island: Tap or untap Tsunami Leviathan.)?
8/8

Coldbreath Pteron 4 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature -- Lizard Red mana symbol
Flying
Blue mana symbol: Target creature gets -2/-0 until end of turn.
4/4

King of the Skies 5 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature -- Lizard Red mana symbol
Flying, vigilance
-this- can't be blocked by creatures with reach.
5/5
(this looks like an uncommon... A sad &#039;frowny&#039;)

Tyrannosaurus Emperor 4 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature -- Lizard Red mana symbol
Overbear 3
Creatures with power 3 or less can't attack.
4/4

Pteranobone 4 mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Creature -- Lizard Skeleton Colorless mana symbol
Pteranobone can't be blocked except by creatures with no abilities.
4/2
(it may be a problem with Skeletosaurus)


We can reprint Mitotic Slime. Multiple vanilla creatures and free tributes!

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Sat, 2011-03-26 00:08
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Phew! Glad you posted, was getting worried interest was gone again...

Tsunami Leviathan - Hmmmm...this is a nice idea but maybe we can play around with the execution. It would be pretty cool if we put overbear on here so that you can manipulate what can block it by untapping it. The only thing I don't like is that it can act like a blue board sweeper which is just too much out of color. Maybe untapped = +0/+2 your team; tapped = -2/-0 their team?

Coldbreath Pteron - Nice card but can you explain the flavor? I don't think we considered a cold weather climate on Muraganda but i am not sure that is what you are getting at.

King of the Skies - It does kind of seem like a good uncommon but we could have it fit a ho-hum rare. Which are still needed.

Tyrannosaur - I like the concept of taking overbear and affect attacking with it. Nicely done. It should say "can't attack you" as your team shouldn't be intimidated by their own Emporer Rex!

Pteranobone - Yeah, we are introducing overbear as a sort of evasion so I think this clashes with that design space even though we are not doing many at common.

Mitotic Slime is a good idea, but the second level tokens do have an ability so maybe our own Muraganda ooze can show up!

Check out my updated set hub.

Sat, 2011-03-26 18:07
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Tsunami Leviathan 5 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature -- Leviathan Red mana symbol
Overbear 4 (that means 6, counting its third ability)
As long as Tsunami Leviathan is untapped, creatures you (and your teammates?) control get +0/+2.
As long as Tsunami Leviathan is tapped, creatures your opponents control get -2/-0.
Sacrifice a creature: Untap Tsunami Leviathan.
8/8
This is a lot of text... maybe we could remove its second ability.

Flavor for Coldbreath Pteron is quite random, a pterodon with a freezing breath attack, natural enemy of firebreathing dragons. Now I think that it could be an ice-aligned dragon. I like the interaction of -X/-0 with overbear.

I agree for the Tyrannosaurus. (I wanted to write Tyrannosaurus Imperator, but I was confused by a character from Dissida Stick out your tongue)

Ideas for the Muraganda Ooze:
Cost 3 mana symbolGreen mana symbolGreen mana symbol, 5/5, creates five 1/1 tokens.
Cost 4 mana symbolGreen mana symbol, 4/4, creates four 1/1 tokens.
Cost 4 mana symbolGreen mana symbol, 3/3, creates six 1/1 tokens.
Or "Whenever this creature is dealt damage, put onto the battlefield that many green 1/1 Ooze creature tokens."?

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Mon, 2011-03-28 22:04
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

I like the 5/5 and the last one. Let me think about it overnight Stick out your tongue

I like sac an Island better than creature on the leviathan. Sac a creature just seems out of place in blue.

An ice aligned dragon would be much better and could take the slot that would normally go to a sphinx. I am getting excited.

So, I was going to submit my own ideas but I like the ones you have better so I think we will just build on that... except I am going to come up with a rare pteradon still.

EDIT: Ok I like the 5/5 with five 1/1s.
And a few Pterons to choose from

Thieving Skyhunter 3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Lizard Red mana symbol
Flying
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
Morph 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
4/4

Haven Pteron 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature - Lizard Red mana symbol
Flying
2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol: Put a 3/3 white lizard creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
3/3

EDIT: And the next version of the leviathan

Krakoa, of the Tsunami 5 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Legendary Creature - Leviathan M Mana for MTG Extra
Overbear 4
As long as Krakoa, of the Tsunami is untapped, other creatures you control get +0/+2.
As long as Krakoa is tapped, creatures your opponents control get -2/-0.
Sacrifice an Island: Untap Krakoa. It gains shroud until end of turn.

Check out my updated set hub.

Tue, 2011-03-29 13:10
elmdor
elmdor's picture

Both Thieving Skyhunter and Haven Pteron are good, but we already have a white angel that is very similar to the Skyhunter.
Krakoa is cool. You forgot its power and toughness, is it 7/7 or 8/8?

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]

Sun, 2011-04-03 12:35
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

The Angel may not make the final cut. We will see.

And Krakoa remains 8/8 as it is aesthetic and awesome.

EDIT: I am thinking about changing the Muraganda Petroglyphs cycle. The fact that it is universal for everyone will only cause people to not want to play with it especially since their opponent's might be using similar strategies. Anyways, I think a revamped version of them that only helps you out is due. I also think that we some support at common but I am not really sure the best way to do this.

Check out my updated set hub.

Mon, 2011-04-04 19:12
elmdor
elmdor's picture

I think that we should suspend this project until we finish Mirrodin Pure.

"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." [Ernest Ruthenford]
"In man we all pray!" [Tony Hadley]