Beseech the... King?

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Thu, 2009-11-05 05:10
InspiredOgre

Beseech the... King?

I love cycles, they make my heart happy.

Im of the opinion, however, that not all cycles need to be 5 cards, sometimes two, or 3, or whatever is enough.

Im also a huge fan of Beseech the Queen. I love tutor effects, and I love the C/2 hybrid mechanic.

So, I decided to make a Beseech the King, in white, as a mirror/cycle/whatever.

Wonder what yall think.

Here is the card.

Beseech the King A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.
Sorcery (U)
(A 2/W hybrid mana symbol. can be paid with any two mana or with W. This card’s converted mana cost is 6.)
Search an opponent’s library for a card with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of lands you control, then exile that card. Then your opponent shuffles his or her library.
Those who hear him hear the voice of salvation.

Before you say that this is not a white effect. White exiles everything nowadays... admittedly from the battlefield, but it seems to me a small step from that to this.

Lastly, is it powerful enough for the cost (color pie concerns aside....)

Thu, 2009-11-05 14:20
Pichoro
Moderator / Template Developer
Pichoro's picture

Sorry, but even placeholder

Sorry, but even placeholder art must be credited. Even if the artist is obvious.

Next time - I recommend using text versions of your card as well.

Odds of Dying - 1:1
My Custom Set List
♥♥♥♥

Thu, 2009-11-05 18:38
Guitarweeps

3-6 mana to snag one card? I

3-6 mana to snag one card? I don't think that is useful at all. Whatever will they do with only three copies in the deck? I think you should pull all the copies of that card from the library. Even that is kind of iffy but could possibly be useful.

Currently working on:
Undead Mini-Plane
Triannon Shard Refraction
Drel Alar Block

Thu, 2009-11-05 21:15
Silver Chocobo
Silver Chocobo's picture

Its a cool card however

Its a cool card however possibly reduce it's cost down to :sym4w:A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.

Dood

Thu, 2009-11-05 22:04
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

Except when it's on the

Except when it's on the battlefield it's presumed to be trying to kill you... In the library a card is an unknown quantity, it technically hasn't "done anything wrong" yet. So it's not white.

ಠ_ಠ

Thu, 2009-11-05 23:20
Vergalon
Vergalon's picture

Yup, not exactly a white

Yup, not exactly a white effect.
Deck manipulation is more blue and black (see also; Head Games and Lobotomy)

Walls of fire, in walls of steel, and walls, and walls, and walls...

Fri, 2009-11-06 05:03
InspiredOgre

I simply disagree with you

I simply disagree with you regarding it not being white enough. But how about this, cut the difference, AND deal with it being weak for the cost.

Beseech the King A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.
Sorcery (U)
[/i](yadda yadda yadda, we know what 2/w is)[/i]
Exile target creature, with a converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of lands you control. Then search that creature's owner’s library for all cards with the same name, exile those cards. Then your opponent shuffles his or her library.

Wording a little fast and loose, just trying to illistrate my point.

Fri, 2009-11-06 18:13
Guitarweeps

That is actually much

That is actually much better. It is much more useful and quite balanced. Would definitely see play and might even encourage people to play 3-of instead of 4 like Maelstrom Pulse which is kind of cool. It is pretty close to a removal from Urza's Destiny that I can't remember but it was similar cost and ability (I think nonblack though). This is a fair ability for the cost. It is powerful but I think it can swing it. The only problem though, is now you have removal in blue and green...

Currently working on:
Undead Mini-Plane
Triannon Shard Refraction
Drel Alar Block

Mon, 2009-11-09 02:54
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

Still isn't white

Ogre, you can't just say you disagree with something without giving a backup explanation. Ask yourself what's going on between Last Breath, Mercy Killing, etc. Think about the flavor.

ಠ_ಠ

Mon, 2009-11-09 05:03
InspiredOgre

@Rusty: I really can say "I

@Rusty: I really can say "I disagree" without explaining.

I say: the sky is blue.
They say: it is not.
I say: I disagree.

Its not a matter of me trying to convince anyone. Its a matter of me not aggreeing.

I say: "lookee here, now, I know this doesent seem white, but IMO, it will be soon."
They say: "Thats not white!"
I say: "I disagree. However, lets meet halfway, as another concerned raised (powerlevel low, even for white,) gives me an opportunity, here we go."
They say: What I can only interpret as stunned and awed silence at my mad skillz. =) (okay, one person was all like, "Cool, I likes it.")

I really, really, really, dont want you to take this as me being overly mean, Rusty. Its an issue of precedence. I said I think its white enough, you all disagreed. I dont agree with your objections. This reverts to the original statement, in which I said... In essence. It may not be white now, but I think itll be white soon (tm).

I think, though, that I am understanding your objections.

Its not about flavor (not really) its that this card exiles a card and all others like it, with no drawback. All other cards in white that do that are saddled with a drawback.

I think there are three things I would say in response. Thing three is admittadly philosophical, I think you shouldent take it as more than what I belive, and not a real defense of this spicific card.

1) Beseech the King is expensive. I know the arguement will be that it is not, but I think the cost (A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.A 2/W hybrid mana symbol.) is more than people expect. Its either:

6 mana symbol OR 4 mana symbolWhite mana symbol OR 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol OR White mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol

This is pretty far from being splashable. Someone said this gives all colors removal, but my take on this is that every color has far more effective removal. White (well, this IS white, but) has Path to Exile. Blue has unsummon (yes, not removal, but cmon.) Black has so many better options, I am not even gonna talk about them. Red burns. And Green? I admit, you have a point there, but even for green mana-ramping, this cost is nothing to sneeze at (and why would they splash this over Path to Exile?)

The concern about color-pies is actually very nuanced. This is because there are two seperate concerns within the same color-pie argument. One is flavor (Ill get to that in a moment.) and the other is power level issues. When we talk about a power level issue, we should really consider a tournament player. Would they ever splash this? I really doubt it. This to me answers the power level issue. Yes, its powerful (in its ability, in its non-traditional white-ness, and in its supposed ability to be splashed.) I disagree that these are actual issues.

2) You also mentioned flavor. Without knowing the rest of the set it belonged to, can you really stand on that ground? In addition to that, the set would include a reprint of Beseech the Queen, and have a flavorful Queen AND King character. And lastly, have a small mechanical concern with the number of land in play. This is also a drawback, the fact that the CMC of the target must be equal to or less than the number of land your control. I think enemy colors mirroring eachother some is VERY flavorful. More on that in #3.

3) This is the philosophical one. So, again, its a useful measure of my headspace, but its not fair to apply to this card. (Argueing that my headspace is a fair measure of anything is more than a little arrogant.) First as mentioned above, enemy mirroring is, IMO, very cool and very flavorful. WB, UR, UG, etc, ect. Enemy colors have been mirroring eachother for a long time.

Mirroring, not emulating. Things are different. Black is all about creature destruction. White exiles. Its a mirror, and white usually pays for that. (Though, IMO, that payment is really quite minor. Path to Exile's payment (give opponent a basic land) is largely seen as meaningless (Look no further than its use (abuse) in tournament level play to see what I mean.)) This card goes further, I admit that. However, I dont think it goes too far. I also accept that that is an opinion.

Lastly, and this is even more philosophical. I think white needs more, not less, creature kill. Will the element of payment for the effect ever go away? Will white ever get...

Awe Blade 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Instant
Exile target non-white creature.

God, I hope so! I love white, and I think its a great mirror. And I think its not more powerful than anything else. Especially if they print Awe Blade AFTER they print the following.

Return From Exile 3 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Sorcery
Return target exiled creature you own to the battlefield.

Now, I love white, I think Return From Exile should be white, but I honestly dont know where that will go.

But trust me, someday, the game will go there. (White gets an exile creature spell with no real drawback (though nonwhite is, sorta, but yeah, semantics.) And someone gets return things from exile.)

~~~

So, you asked me to back up why I disagree... I hope I did. Its more nueanced than it first appeared. Im not just being a child, "Nuh-uh!"

But, all of the above can still be summed up as "I disagree."

Which is to say that, this is what I think, but I expect a lot of people disagree. I accept that.

At some point, we agree to disagree.

(Though id love to continue the debate anyway.)

EDIT

A lot of the concerns raised are looking back. Someone else on the board made the statement (in some other thread, I think it was mine regarding my set) that they like to pretend they are working for WotC when designing. I do to.

Wizards is indeed influenced by the past. Precedence is huge. It is however, not adhered to when there is reason not to. Looking back is important. But so is looking forward.

This card looks forward more than back. Arrogant of me? Perhaps. But then again, I dont actually work for Wizards. (Yet, MWA HA HA AHA!)

Mon, 2009-11-09 18:23
Guitarweeps

I do hope we see a little

I do hope we see a little interaction with the exiled zone. Obviously, it would have to be limited to maintain the integrity of the exiled zone. Here is a little card a came up with a couple moths back:

Blessed of Souls 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature - Spirit
Flying
White creatures you control get +1/+1 as long as ~ is exiled.
2/2

I wasn't saying that you couldn't do it because it would give other colors removal. It was just a thoughful afterthought really. They did the same thing with Flame Javelin but that is ok. This is a strong card but it is doable. It is much better than the original IMO.

Currently working on:
Undead Mini-Plane
Triannon Shard Refraction
Drel Alar Block

Mon, 2009-11-09 18:43
InspiredOgre

Thank you, I think it went

Thank you, I think it went from something questionable (because it was just deck manipulation, and it was also weak) To something really cool, all from dealing with both problems at once. Im happy where it is now.

I agree, the exile zone always has to be treated carefully.

Tue, 2009-11-10 11:02
ALEX Ryugami
ALEX Ryugami's picture

WOw

LOL, I also have a set idea about exile zone Big smile

Sets that I make:
Ilesh Mini-Plane (Still working on)
Ilesh, Expanded
Tales of Asdoria