The Wonderful, All-Encompassing Card Clinic

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Thu, 2009-05-14 15:04
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Alright, so in the past, we've had separate clinics for balancing and wording issues on cards. But often times, a user who has trouble with one has trouble with both. What's more, this doesn't cover other possible issues, such as flavor, naming, or art. So, both the previously mentioned clinics are being closed, and all discussion from them can continue here. New projects can begin here as well.

What this Clinic is for:
- Help with balance.
- Help with wording.
- Help with art.
- Help with flavor.
- Help with naming.

What this Clinic is not for:
- Help with templating new games.
- Help with world-building; try to do that in your own Showcase thread.
- Help with making set symbols.

One other issue with the old clinics was that they seemed to be for Magic only. As far I'm concerned, users are welcome to post cards from other games here as well. Be advised, though; the odds of someone who can adequately judge those cards being a frequent visitor here are low.


The old Balancing Clinic can be found here.

The old Wording Clinic can be found here.

Thu, 2009-05-14 23:34
Raven Darkhawk
Raven Darkhawk's picture

Ok, so here goes. First we have the red ability:

Rage: - When a creature with the Rage ability is blocked or is blocking a creature with a greater strength, the creature gains the effects after the colon. Example - Rage: Doublestrike, the creature gains doublestrike or Rage: +3/+0, the creature would get a +3/+0. (Used with Werewolf creature types)

Black ability:

Blood # - When a creature with this ability comes into play, it gets a number of blood counters equal to the listed number placed on it. (Noe the counters themselves don't do anything, but there will be creatures and spells that will deal with that.) (Used with Vampire creature types)

Blue ability:

Possess - You may sacrafice this creature to gain control of target creature whos converted mana cost is less than the sacraficed creature's. (Used with Ghost creature types)

White ability:

Prejudice: - (I want it to work to have people want to use tribal style decks and show and show a dislike for other creature types, but not class types.) (Used with Human creature types)

Green ability:

(Still working on that one.) (Used with Beast creature types)

So on the others, how is the wording? On Prejudice, can I get some help on wording it. If it helps, I will be bringing back some older keywords to work with these. Haunt for blue, Rampage for green, Tribal (not really a keyword) for white, and still thinking on two more.

“Within the darkness is release and I plan to release you from existence.”

Thu, 2009-05-14 23:54
Vergalon
Vergalon's picture

@Pich: Aww, you killed them... and made a shiny new Phoenix (I kinda see where your decision came from)

@Raven: Now to help;

Rage: Well, first lets word it right (unless it's not worded the way you posted):
Rage-Whenever this creature is bocked by a creature with a greater power, it gets/gains (insert thing here).
I like it, but I don't like it. It doesn't do much on big creatures, and that's red's thing in a way. I personally would eliminate the power condition to make it look neeter and play better 9although you would need to adjust power levels)

Blood- X:
I don't think this needs to be keyworded :/
just because something shows up a lot, doesn't mean it needs to be keyworded; see thalids

Possess: This could be fun, but powerful... maybe put a mana cost and a "play this only as a sorcery" ability and it'd be less possibly broken. Also, it's spirits/illusions, not ghosts
also, the wording:
{cost}, Sacrifice this creature: Gain control of target creature with a converted mana cost is less than this creature. (this effect does not end at end of turn.)

Prejudice: Tricky problem... there isn't anything in the rules that differentiate 'race' types from 'job' types, so you have to specify which you want to include/exclude from the ability.

Fri, 2009-05-15 00:22
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Yeah, I think we (Innuendo and I) made the right choice to make this crossover. You, Vergalon, were unfortunately the only one with new cards open for discussion, so you may need to repost those here to get them attention. But otherwise, I think is going to be for the best.

Fri, 2009-05-15 00:30
kamui_hiryoku
kamui_hiryoku's picture

Okay, so seeing as this is here now, I'll post here. So my thing is this: I have to find a lot of art for my cards and perhaps it's laziness that prevents me from looking through all of the suggested sites for art searching so I figured I'd post a few cards here and see if anyone might have come across any good art for these. So I guess I'll just post four here.

Spoiler:

Straightforward, really, but nothing too high-tech looking.

Spoiler:

Oddly enough, I didn't find anything at DeviantArt that looked like I wanted for this one.

Spoiler:

If I took the time, I could probably find art for this, but...well, I guess I was lazy.

Spoiler:

Could get pretty creative with this one, I guess. I'll see what comes up.

Well, that's it for now. I've got a lot, but I'll just post 3 or 4 periodically.


Check out my set: Aftermath.

Fri, 2009-05-15 03:50
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

Sorry they're not art suggestions, but Barbed Ramparts can and should use the term "fortifying a land," and I think Demonic Influence should have reminder text for unravel. Cards like (Sedris, the Traitor King, Maelstrom Nexus), which under normal circumstances wouldn't have reminder text, make a statement by doing this.

Administrator

Fri, 2009-05-15 04:42
ALEX Ryugami
ALEX Ryugami's picture

I see your reason about making new thread, and I welcome it. By the way, I have a card that's made before Alara Reborn printed. Here is the card:

Megavore White mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlack mana symbolRed mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Lhurgoyf (R)
Vigilance, flying, haste, trample
~'s power and toughness are equal to tie number of cards in all graveyards.
*/*

やれやれだぜ

Fri, 2009-05-15 08:16
kamui_hiryoku
kamui_hiryoku's picture

All right Rusty, well, thank you. I was actually thinking about that fortify thing and I wasn't sure so I guess I'll have to change all of those then. As for Demonic Influence, I didn't think I'd need it and it would be really wordy if I had reminder text, wouldn't it?


Check out my set: Aftermath.

Fri, 2009-05-15 14:46
Vergalon
Vergalon's picture

Continuing from the last thread, I still would like a little input on this cycle:

Devil's Whim
3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Instant {R}
Choose one — Draw a card, or destroy target creature.
Choose one — Draw a card, or destroy target creature.

Heavenly Boon
1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Instant {R}
Choose one — Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn, or you gain 3 life.
Choose one — Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn, or you gain 3 life.

Mistbind
2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Sorcery {R}
Choose one — Return target creature to its owner’s hand, or tap two target permanents.
Choose one — Return target creature to its owner’s hand, or tap two target permanents.

Predatory Urge
Red mana symbolRed mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Instant {R}
Creatures you control get +1/+0 until end of turn.
Choose one — Target creature can’t block this turn, or target creature blocks this turn if able.
Choose one — Target creature can’t block this turn, or target creature blocks this turn if able.

Crack
2 mana symbolBlack mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
Sorcery {R}
Choose one — Destroy target land, or target player discards a card.
Choose one — Destroy target land, or target player discards a card.

Well? I'm fairly sure of a few of them, but predatory urge and mistbind I think may need new costing.
Even if they look ok, just post saying so (kinda hard to read minds through the internet )
Thanks in advance for any help.

Fri, 2009-05-15 18:44
Ulxiz
Ulxiz's picture

@Vergalon: I guess you can just use "Then, repeat this process." rather than repeat the abilities. Also, you should separate choices using ";."

Now, onto the cards:

Devil's Whim: At 5 mana, it is underpowered. I would change it's cost to 2 mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlack mana symbol or even Blue mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol, or make it two cards rather than just one.

Heavenly Boon: Looks fine to me, but i can't see someone using it just for the life gaining.

Mistbind: Just use "up to two."

Predatory Urge: The creature boost kind drives it away from the cycle. I suggest changing the red ability for the boost(maybe make it +2/+0), or erasing that part and changing the cost to Red mana symbolGreen mana symbol.

Crack: Just make it 1 mana symbolBlack mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol.

Fri, 2009-05-15 20:00
Daeres

So, like everyone and their dog, i'm attempting to make an underwater-plane based set. My solution to the issue of U mana is to make it the only NON-water based mana source, and have U creatures live on Islands on the surface. This sounds like it should be in a showcase thread, but it's the preamble for a flavour check (and possibly anything else) on this card. I always have, and will continue to feel, that colour+elemental associations are not what the colour pie is about, not that i'm assuming you'll disagree. The other issue is that there is some bleed here from more blue/black style combat evasion, but a) i'm planning on making shadow quite a big keyword in the set and b) even though it's normally not a red thing, I can personally still see it fitting into red's slice of the pie.

Tiger Shark
2R
Shadow(W or w/o reminder text)
RR, T: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature without shadow.
2/2

Completed Sets That Are Now Being Revised

Furor 06/2009 (Underwater Setting)
Furor Revised 05/2010?

Sets under Construction

Theogony (Ancient Greek Setting)
Fabrica (Steampunk Setting)

Fri, 2009-05-15 20:09
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Although you say you can see Shadow in red's pie, I don't personally see how any evasion other than big flyers (dragons) fits into red. So, I would atleast cost it at 3R. Evasion seems a little too intelligent for the stereotypically dim red.

I like that you (seemingly) are using a different flavor meaning for shadow; getting away from that stuck between the planes bit it has in Dominarian sets.

The flavor is indeed a little dull. A more colorful name, and some flavor text... Maybe name a location in your plane; something like... Murkwell or Murkreef or something; like other sets have had Tidehollow and Rootwater and such. Then make the name "<location> Tiger Shark" with flavor "The tiger sharks lurk in the <location>, stalking the unprepared." That's a little weak, but maybe someone else can come up with better.

Fri, 2009-05-15 21:14
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

@kamui: I understand it could ridiculously increase the amount of text, I just wanted to point out precedent. Don't feel like you have to though, since you'd probably only be playing this with people you know, and could explain in person if someone's confused. I'd also consider revising the ability to make it shorter or remove the damage and make it cost more.

Administrator

Fri, 2009-05-15 22:27
copapoc

for the falvor maybe involve merfolk's ?

Sat, 2009-05-16 04:43
Vergalon
Vergalon's picture

@Ulxiz:
I'll consideer using that instead. The only reason I did it this way was because of a suggestion when I made devil's whim (3 months+ ago). Originally I had it as "choose two-" then two coppies of each ability. So I guess it's either your idea, the Command way, or the Seeds of Strength way... I think I will either go with yours... or maybe the way I have it now... tough choice >.<

Devil's Whim: gotcha. I was some what concerned about the cost at 4, so I played it safe.
Heavenly Boon: yea, I would say the same, but until I think of something else, it's all I have... maybe regenerate each creatur you control?
Mistbind: note taken
Predatory Urge: aww... but I like it I knew it took away from the cycle a bit, but I likded what it gave the card. It either increases the range of creatures you can kill, or push through to the kill... (also I think a potential +4/+0 at 3 mana would be way to dangeous) I'll think it over (maybe I'll make a new one and save this for another set ^.^ (maybe something like a Branching Bolt on steroids?))
Crack: *see devil's whim*

Sat, 2009-05-16 05:15
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

Vergalon - I really, really like this cycle. They are really simple yet play really subtly. However, I think your original costs for Devil's Whim and Crack (soooo needs a better name) were spot on.
Black only gets unconditional kill plus weak ability at 3 mana symbolBlack mana symbolBlack mana symbol. To have it double kill needs to stay at 5CC. Might need to be a sorcery too.
Similarly, there is no way you should print anything as unfun as double land destruction at 4cc.
However, I think the black ability on crack is unenticing. You could easily make it two cards per activation.

Heavenly Boon - While the lifegain looks bad, look at the whassit cascade spell which people consider just about tourney playable. Besides, 3 mana for 6 life is one of the most efficient life gain spells.

Mistbind: if that was an instant it would be ridiculous A happy smile As a sorcery it's fine.

Predatory Urge: you could easily cost it Red mana symbolGreen mana symbol but there are many better finishing cards around in red. What about ping/pump? Or an anti-counter ability on one half (slightly harder). Oooh... "Target spell or creature gains protection from blue until end of turn." Big smile

Sat, 2009-05-16 11:10
kamui_hiryoku
kamui_hiryoku's picture

@Rusty: I tried the card with the reminder text and it doesn't seem too bad, actually. I haven't hosted it so I can't post it right this minute. It is a little wordy, but when I get it hosted, I'll put it up and see what everyone thinks.

@anyone else: So any art thoughts for the other cards I posted?


Check out my set: Aftermath.

Sat, 2009-05-16 14:11
innuendo
innuendo's picture

double land destruction isn't bad for that cost I don't think. It's heavy in color needs and at 5 mana doesn't win you the game in anyway, or really get you any closer. I mean you can plow under for about that, and it is arguably more of a draw force the player to top deck them the next two turns than to just lose them.

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Sat, 2009-05-16 16:05
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

I agree, at 5cc. Ulxix had suggested it at 4.

Sat, 2009-05-16 17:04
Daeres

Deeping Whale 3
3G
Creature-Whale (Rare)
Surfacing 2 (This permanent comes into play with two air counters. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove an air counter from Deeping Whale. If you can’t, return Deeping Whale to its owner’s hand.)
3G: Deeping Whale gets -1/-3 and gains shadow until end of turn.
3/5

Mixed reaction to this from people i've shown it to, personally I think it's overpowered (yes since it's a Greenie with Shadow it's a rare), but it's also been described as underpowered and overexpensive. Thoughts?

Completed Sets That Are Now Being Revised

Furor 06/2009 (Underwater Setting)
Furor Revised 05/2010?

Sets under Construction

Theogony (Ancient Greek Setting)
Fabrica (Steampunk Setting)

Sat, 2009-05-16 17:39
ALEX Ryugami
ALEX Ryugami's picture

I think the Whale is okay at uncommon, even without the surfacing ability, or you can make it as is at common even green is rarely using evasion.

やれやれだぜ

Sat, 2009-05-16 18:45
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

For surfacing, I would suggest using the template for vanishing rather than fading, so "When you remove the last ~ counter, return this card to its owner's hand."

As for the creature... four mana for a temporary 3/5 isn't stunning. Even with the evasion, it's a mana hog. It would work fine at uncommon, and I think you could squeeze the stats - maybe 4/6 - or just give it shroud. From the looks of things, you have shadow all over the place, so it's fine in green at uncommon.

Sat, 2009-05-16 18:50
Daeres

Deeping Whale 3
3G
Creature-Whale (Uncommon)
Surfacing 2 (This permanent comes into play with two air counters. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove an air counter from Deeping Whale. When you remove the last air counter, return Deeping Whale to its owner’s hand.)
3G: Deeping Whale gets -1/-3 and gains shadow until end of turn.
4/6

Completed Sets That Are Now Being Revised

Furor 06/2009 (Underwater Setting)
Furor Revised 05/2010?

Sets under Construction

Theogony (Ancient Greek Setting)
Fabrica (Steampunk Setting)

Sat, 2009-05-16 18:55
The Figment

Note that when you change the previous version of surfacing to the new one, you have to increase the number by 1.

Power-level wise, it's still fine.

Sat, 2009-05-16 19:02
Daeres

Well here's the question; should it be given 1 turn to arrive, and 1 turn to attack, or 1 turn to arrive or two to attack? I'm a little torn between Surfacing 2 and 3.

Completed Sets That Are Now Being Revised

Furor 06/2009 (Underwater Setting)
Furor Revised 05/2010?

Sets under Construction

Theogony (Ancient Greek Setting)
Fabrica (Steampunk Setting)

Sat, 2009-05-16 21:23
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

How about surfacing one and haste? Stick out your tongue (It would be a really fun card, but you couldn't really put other abilities on, so it isn't this card). Surfacing 3 seems good. 2 attacks.

Sat, 2009-05-16 21:32
Raven Darkhawk
Raven Darkhawk's picture

Okay, I decided to change Blood keyword to Sanguine.

Sanguine - When this creature comes into play, put a number of blood counters equal to its toughness on it. Blood counters may be removed to prevent a point of damage.

How is it?

“Within the darkness is release and I plan to release you from existence.”

Sat, 2009-05-16 21:38
Daeres

Surfacing and Haste is already planned dear sir, mwahahaha. It'll be like old-school Viashinos all over again...
Surfacing 3 it is.

Completed Sets That Are Now Being Revised

Furor 06/2009 (Underwater Setting)
Furor Revised 05/2010?

Sets under Construction

Theogony (Ancient Greek Setting)
Fabrica (Steampunk Setting)

Mon, 2009-05-18 14:54
Ink
Ink's picture

Just wanna check if you guys think this is balanced. Thanks!

Phyrexian Pralaya
Cost: 1
Artifact Creature - Carrier
Devour 4 (As this creature comes into play, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This creature comes into play with four times that many +1/+1 counters on it.)
Remove a +1/+1 counter on Phyrexian Pralaya: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
If Phyrexian Pralaya has power 8 or greater, it becomes a Dreadnought in addition to its other creature types and has trample.
0/0

Also, this keyword...

Endow <cost>
If you control an untapped creature, you may play this as that creature's activated ability by tapping it and paying this card's endow cost.

Ex.

Meteor Fall
Cost: 3R
Sorcery
Destroy target land.
Endow—1R, Sacrifice a land (If you control an untapped creature, you may play this as that creature’s activated ability by tapping it and paying this card’s endow cost.)

Mon, 2009-05-18 15:47
ALEX Ryugami
ALEX Ryugami's picture

@sorrow:
-Phyrexian Pralaya: Whooa! (almost) One turn kill with this, a random land that could produce mana, and five 0 mana symbol mana artifact creatures. It would be better if it's just devour 2 and rare.

-Endow: I think it should be like this:

Endow <cost> (You may play this card by tap an untapped creature you control and pay this card's endow cost.)

Yeah, it wouldn't be an activated ability, but the reminder text is simpler.

やれやれだぜ

Mon, 2009-05-18 16:41
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

I really like the idea of the Phyrexian Pralaya, but as written it is broken.
- Firstly, I think Alex's Devour 2 is about right
- Secondly, it should cost at least 2 mana symbol. The Carrier ability is far better than any of the others' printed (apart from the Phyrexian Plaguelord, which was cmc 5). OR cost 1, but it needs to tap to use the ability.
- I don't care as much what rarity this is, since it's probably best abused in constructed. However, it can kill multiple creatures fairly easily so that does limit it to uncommon or above.

Endow: I largely agree with Alex but you might be able to get some of your expected behaviour by adding, "A spell played this way cannot be countered." It's possible though that you meant something more like:

Endow <cost> (cost: remove this card from the game face up, attached to target creature. That creature has, "Tap: play a copy of target spell endowed on this character. You must pay costs normally.")

Mon, 2009-05-18 19:07
Vergalon
Vergalon's picture

@everyone who commented on my cycle:
ok, thanks for all the feedback ^.^
So I'll keep devils whim and crack at their costs (gotta think of another name for crack, so it still fills its role)
I still need to (think of)/(decide on) a new RG dual command :/

Tue, 2009-05-19 00:44
Ink
Ink's picture

Endow in a nutshell means playing a card as a one-time activated ability for a chosen creature you control.

Meaning, the card played and on the stack no longer counts as a spell but counts as the chosen creature's activated ability. Since it's an activated ability, it can't be countered by "counter target spell" spells and abilities but can be countered by "counter target activated ability" spells and abilities. Speed of play still depends on whether the card is a sorcery or an instant.

The purpose of the keyword was to bypass blue's countermagic by, in a very 'green' way, giving your spells to your creature's instead.

I tried to make the reminder text as condensed as possible, but I guess it doesn't really catch on naturally.

Updated:
Endow <cost>
If you control an untapped creature, you may play this as that creature's activated ability instead of a spell by tapping the creature and paying this card's endow cost.
-----
As for the Phyrexian Pralaya, I've also asked a friend who is dci staff/judge and they say it isn't as breakable as ye old Dreadnought.

Dreadnought:
Dreadnought's citp ability can be stifled. An opening godhand consists of 6 cards (Land, ManaArtifact, Dreadnought, Stifle, Force of Will, Blue Card).
Pralaya:
Devour cannot be stifled. You are required to have at least 1 other creature to put it in play. A godhand will consist of all cards in your opening hand (5 0cc creatures, Pralaya, Land), of which you cannot defend the Pralaya from countermagic or removal because you have no other cards in hand.

I'm nerfing the to Devour 3. A 1cc, sac a creature, 4/4 removal ability creature is already a major threat in itself but I always thought it was justified by rarity (rare, which I guess I failed to put in my previous post).

Thanks for the replies.

Tue, 2009-05-19 15:23
innuendo
innuendo's picture

"this creatures activated ability" means nothing at all. Who cares which creature it is? I just can't understand how this is different than a faerie macbre effect that includes "tap an untapped creature you control." If it's because your focus on stifle as a power level gauge, that is an incorrect path to take. Stifle is not a card you should be designing your keywords to specifically interact with when it makes them this cumbersome. Your best bet it seems is to do

Endow [cost] (You may pay [cost] and tap an untapped creature you control to play this card instead of paying it's other costs)

In which case, it's almost exactly like convoke.

As for the dreadnaught. Unless creature type matters a _lot_ in your set, remove the last ability since it's pointless and wordy. As for power level, I would be inclined to say that is rather horribly broken. If your defense is "it can be stifle/countered" that isn't a good defense since that has nothing to do with how good the card is. Anything can be countered stifled, but only one color has that ability (by in large). You can't make a card of which there is only thirty or so printed answers in the history of magic. Even at 3 it's still so cheap in terms of power to cost. An easy 9/9 for 1? I don't think that's right, even if you are giving up three creatures. If that card was printed it would be so ab usable it wouldn't last a day without getting banned. Your "godhand" is not that godly. I'm sure give the card to a vintage pro player and you would see decks with enough token/creature spam turn's 1/2 that it wouldn't even be worth trying to not run this card. And you seem very focused on countermagic, saying if you had 5 0cc creature you have non. How on earth is that a drawback? You would still have had a 2/2 on turn 1 with little to no trickery!

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 16:16
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

To put it another way: Thunder-Thrash Elder has devour 3 and costs 3. While it was considered risky, it was still strong in the right circumstances. Consider that the same card had your kill-creature ability: it would no longer be considered risky because if your opponent went to Terror it, you can just kill all his creatures in response. Since it's colourless (why?), I'm now thinking it ought to cost at least 3 mana symbol (with devour 2). Remember, you don't need to deliberately design cards that are competitive in legacy/vintage, or even extended - these formats just use the best cards available for the metagame.

Tue, 2009-05-19 20:42
desmonthesis

I downloaded MSE a while ago, but then got out of it for a while. I just recently started messing about with it again, and have been tweaking a few of the old cards that I created with it. Wanted to share a few of them with you to see what you thought. These are from a set which the main theme is Angels vs. Demons. And no, I haven't made many cards yet.

Spoiler:

EDIT: sorry, typo'd the spoiler tags.

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:06
innuendo
innuendo's picture

Lots of little wording issues here and there, I wont profess to be able to fix them all but ones I picked up:

Spying Seraph: "Whenever ~ deals [combat] damage to a player, choose one: Look at the top card of that player's library or draw a card."

Heavens Blessing: I would use this "Sacrifice a permanent: Add a time counter to ~. Any player may play this ability." That will more than likely be correct (pending me making some silly mistaken, either way it's more correct than what you currently have)

Angelic Familiar and Fallen Seraph: Not sure you can call a card just an "angel" while it's not in play, almost positive you need to specify "target Angel card" since anything not in play is a card.

General: "at any time" doesn't work as far as I know (the only known instance is cheatyface, which hardly counts as a template example). For a template for those sort of effects you can look at thran quarry which uses "At end of turn, if you control no creatures, sacrifice Thran Quarry." Which would work perfectly for Angel Familiar.

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:31
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

Heaven's blessing still needs a regular mana cost, or else this is broken with Cascade. The wording should also be "put a time counter on" and have "if ~ is suspended." Look at Curse of the Cabal.

Administrator

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:33
innuendo
innuendo's picture

Rusty, I don't think adding a regular cost to the card makes it better, adding a regular cost makes it so much easier to cheat out. Having no cost makes it unplayable from hand, which is nice. Plus, cascade is a block mechanic, not really something another block would have to worry about too much. Adding a cost makes it more likely to be broken other ways, and seeing as cascade is a rather niche worry I think it's not worth adding.

Summing up the wording for the card though:

"Sacrifice a permanent: If ~ is suspended, put a time counter on it. Any player may play this ability"

That felt wrong, but anything else required back to back [cardname]'s which didn't seem right either. Do we have a card to template from for this?

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:34
desmonthesis

How about something like this:

Heaven's Blessing
1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Sorcery (R)
Suspend 5 4 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Sacrifice a permanent: If ~ is suspended, put a time counter on it. Any player may play this ability.
If ~ was played after being suspended, you win the game.

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:37
innuendo
innuendo's picture

No, that is going the wrong way towards cleanliness, as well as making it 100% useless to play as a regular card (1W for Nothing, horay!)

And taken from Greater Gargadon I change the wording to:

Sacrifice a permanent: Put a time counter on ~. Any player may play this ability [only] if ~ is suspended.

the [only] is giving me issue with how to mesh the "any player" part and the "is suspended" part, but rusty is right, they both need to be there.

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:40
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

I don't know if it's legal to add that last line of text, but I like it. If you do that you don't need to add a cost either.

Quote:
Plus, cascade is a block mechanic, not really something another block would have to worry about too much.

Are you kidding me? Cascade still exists and it's still an instant free win as early as turn two.

Administrator

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:41
innuendo
innuendo's picture

If you like the last line you can simply add "If ~ was played from your hand, counter it."

Seem's much cleaner than talking about suspend, still leaves the issue with cascade (which I still think is minimal to the point of not worrying about)

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:44
desmonthesis

Yeah, I'm trying to find a way to make sure that this card cant be triggered by Cascade.

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:52
Rusty Keyes
Rusty Keyes's picture

Quote:
is minimal to the point of not worrying about
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with that. You are saying "let's ignore it" as the solution. I understand that Pichoro did that with Protean Hulk but his set is purely experimental, it was a single card, and he had no other choice.

Also, spells played as the result of Cascade are played from the rfg zone. A sad &#039;frowny&#039;

Maybe you shouldn't play the spell at all? What if it said "When the last time counter is removed from ~, you win the game"?

Administrator

Tue, 2009-05-19 21:57
desmonthesis

"Maybe you shouldn't play the spell at all? What if it said "When the last time counter is removed from ~, you win the game"?"

I like that idea.

Tue, 2009-05-19 22:22
innuendo
innuendo's picture

I see what your saying rusty, but this set as far as we know has about 5 or 6 cards, and one keyword that has like 10 printings ever, and is unlikey to see more, seems like a stupid reason to make such a convoluted fix for. If you want to make the fix I would argue from a set design standpoint cutting the card for templating issues. I mean this is a hobby, and butchering the design of an otherwise elegant card seems like such a waste for such a small concern. I agree it's a concern, and maybe i'm downplaying it too much, but the card is rather elegant without the cascade issues, and all of the fixes being proposed are rather...ugly.

Current Projects: Siege SCG

Tue, 2009-05-19 22:23
Pichoro
Pichoro's picture

Yeah, I will say I made my choice with Protean Hulk because it was a single card that wrecked the whole idea; but then, it wrecks lots of real cards that were printed and are being printed too, so I said why not?

But at the same time, there've been times I've thought of a mechanic and thought "No, Dredge/Transmute/Mechanic So-And-So/WotC R&D exists, so this is broken." And honestly, I've thought of just ignoring the source of the problem too. I mean, really, what isn't broken with Dredge? And Cascade isn't much better under some circumstances.

I can see both your sides, really...

Tue, 2009-05-19 22:28
Picks-at-Flies
Picks-at-Flies's picture

Yup, that's what I would have been working towards. I did worry that this card might be too broken with cards that removed lots of time counters, but the reality is that it won't be broken in constructed formats because it's just too slow.

Generally I think your cards are pretty balanced. There are probably some issues on various of the cards which could be raised, but I think the flavour wins out. I agree about the familiar though - needs to be eot or your upkeep. Besides, it works better that way - "oops, I've lost my angel. Better get it back before the end of turn then..."

Edit- I was ninjad. First para relates to "When the last time counter is removed...." which I think IS elegant.

Tue, 2009-05-19 23:31
ALEX Ryugami
ALEX Ryugami's picture

I agree with Rusty. And I think the "If you play ~ from your hand, counter it." is more broken. Why? Because of Vexing Shusher . Unanswerable (except with oddities like Time Stop or Venser, Shaper Savant) instant win at (normally) turn three is ridiculous. Especially at older formats like Vintage or Legacy. The most thing that I agree is "When the last time counter is removed from ~, while it's removed from the game, you win the game." Sure, this would make a U/R Jhoira of the Githu Suspend deck with Timecrafting or even a Fury Charm! But it's an interesting deck that I'm proud of as a designer if that happens for my cards because they used in an unexpected way than I was. A happy smile And I think it don't have to have a "Sacrifice a permanent" effect except if it has "Suspend 2-2 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol". If you want to keep the "Sacrifice a permanent" ability, I suggest "Suspend 3-1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol".

やれやれだぜ

Wed, 2009-05-20 08:52
Ink
Ink's picture

My vision for Endow is to make a keyword that would allow you to play the card as an activated ability of a creature you control. Hence, making it immune to most counterspells but it should still be stoppable by the likes of Stifle, Squelch, Teferi's Response, Humility, Pithing Needle, etc etc. I want to work around that concept.