Card of the Week Contest #201: I Can't Believe It's Not Thoughtseize!

Sat, 2018-01-13 04:41
Gateways7's picture

Who needs to build with instants or sorceries in their own deck when you can just delve for your opponent's instead? Have a look at green Delver of Secrets!

(Although this is pretty busted, so is normal Delver, so...)

Sat, 2018-01-13 09:25
JayHinch's picture

@The5lacker: I'm fully aware of its name being redundant BUT, if you reword it you get the words "think", "not"(nuat) and "see". Those are different variations on the words "Thought", "not" and "seer". I do recognize that "naut" and "sea" are homophones but the idea is there. I thought it was snappy and flavorful, apparently not. I feel I accomplished what I wanted to do with this challenge. I didn't even realize that Hostage Taker was a card (i haven't played ANY Ixilan... or looked at the set... I need to go out more...) until today.

But hey, what can I say, I'm a creator, not a developer.

EDIT: clicked save not preview...

I am not NEW, just RUSTY.
I was previously known as jhincherick.

My color

Sat, 2018-01-13 14:43
Pixi-Rex's picture

Changed my entry to a new one, based on feedback from Flacker.

(new entry in my orginal post. You can also see the render below.)


Sat, 2018-01-13 15:53
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

@5lacker - Yeah I thought about making it legendary but thought a legend with ETB brainstorm was kinda lame for a legend. The name of the card is more or less a joke anyways. He heralds from a wizard tower where they all take on the name "Brian" so it isn't unique...or something like that lol. Is it more broken then the tons of other utility creatures that have some sort of card sorting/drawing ETB? I don't really think so.

@Daij - Hey look at that! I do think that CMC 4 is the correct cost for entering standard. I was kind of going for more of a card that would be made in a Conspiracy or Commander type set. CMC 3 for legacy/vintage/commander would be fine. Plus I put the double Blue mana symbol for a reason. I have a render but the photo site is giving me trouble. Hopefully I can put it up.

Check out my updated set hub.

Sat, 2018-01-13 17:15
Asthanius's picture

@5lacker: I disagree based on Green's ability to 1) Return any card from your graveyard to your hand, and 2) Put permanents of any type from the top of your library or your hand onto the battlefield (Aid from the Cowl, Genesis Hydra, Genesis Wave, Primal Surge each take from the library; Selvala's Stampede takes from the hand). I believe these two abilities form an intersection where Green has the ability to "reanimate" any permanent if the cost and/or restrictions are chosen well. Additionally, I see this at most being a bend of Green's abilities and not a break when used in an enchantment-heavy context. As a reference, New Phyrexia was a set where every color was given abilities with a hint of Black in them; this is seen most obviously in Inquisitor Exarch, which is a White creature with an ETB ability that lets you choose to either gain life (a White ability) or make your opponent lose life (a Black ability). The context matters, of course, and it's my view that an enchantment-heavy set such as Theros would have no issues with a mono-Green enchantment-reanimation spell.

Sat, 2018-01-13 19:30
Gurfle's picture

Render for my entry

@5lacker - Well, I'll take that.

My battle board!
I run a prompt board-- come on over and design some cards, will ya?

Sat, 2018-01-13 21:17
Neottolemo's picture

A Glorybringer variant. Part Green mana symbol because of Meandering Towershell.

EDIT-Added artist credit.

Sat, 2018-01-13 23:37
Mosgon's picture

The temptation to do Blood Moon but in green is strong

Check out my first set, Landlords of Myradon, by clicking here.
Check out my Battle Board! Maybe even attack me!

Sat, 2018-01-13 23:51
Moderator Best Set of 2016
Daij_Djan's picture

Outdated Entry
Brought to you directly from Karsus:

Sun, 2018-01-14 03:49
Mosgon's picture

Here's my submission, in text form!
It's a Soul-Scar Mage who went to a different school of magic

Battle-Scar Mage - 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Human Wizard Rare
Whenever you draw a card, tap target permanent.

I don't know if this is too borked. I know it's late, but feedback would be appreciated A happy smile


Check out my first set, Landlords of Myradon, by clicking here.
Check out my Battle Board! Maybe even attack me!

Sun, 2018-01-14 09:15
Scribbl's picture

An alternate Demonic Pact:

Worldsoul Pact White mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlack mana symbolRed mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Legendary Enchantment Mythic Rare
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn’t been chosen:
• Create three 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
• Draw two cards.
• You gain 5 life.
• Worldsoul Pact deals 4 damage to target creature.
• Return a card from your graveyard to your hand.
• Exile Worldsoul Pact.

Keep it simple, friend!
- Formerly JaceMC88
Check out my Battle Board!

Sun, 2018-01-14 14:20
The5lacker's picture

@Gateway: You do know you can do things other than just colorshift a card, right? "Homage" doesn't mean "Copy but tweak." And I think your card might be worse than you think because "Target control deck draws a card" generally means "Immediately remove this creature and lose tempo."

@JayHinch: If I might make a recommendation: If you want to design Magic cards, maybe you should look at recently designed Magic cards. That's how you improve, learning from others. Also, the hell does that mean, "I'm a creator not a developer"?

@Pixi-Rex: Oh boy. That's not terrifying at all. Like, it's probably slightly weaker than Thoughtseize, but... that's still bonkers.

@Guitarweeps: You're explaining the joke. That's not a good sign.

@Asthanius: Ooooooh boy. That's... that's bad. That's really just terrible design justification. Allow me to show you how. 1) Black can make players discard cards, solving them before they start. 2) Black can destroy things. These two mean 3) Black should be able to counter spells, as it can do things to cards before and after they hit the stack, so why not in the middle of it too? Or better yet, 1) Green gets Deathtouch. 2) Green gets fighting. This means that 3) Green should get a Deathtouch creature that Fights when it enters the battlefield! Or a simpler one. Red can damage creatures, so Red should get "Destroy target creature" too. Blue can counter artifact spells, so lets give Blue "Destroy target artifact" too. The problem with your argument is that we've already seen, clearly, which color reanimates Enchantments most frequently. It's been Done pretty Recently in fact. Remember, just saying "Well I CAN" do this is worthless as far as justifications go. You "CAN" do basically anything you want. The question you should be asking yourself is "SHOULD I be doing this?" "Is there a way to do this BETTER?" "Am I starting from a base assumption and making excuses, or am I starting from a set of ideas and building out from them?" That last one's probably the most important because it's a trap you should be constantly vigilant about avoiding, and I can see exactly why you fell into it, because I can recreate your thought process here: "All right, we can do color shifts so that's cool, lets just look through this list, ooo Refurbish is on the list I can do one of those. Now, what else returns things from the graveyard... Green! And what permanent type haven't we seen? Enchantments! Yeah, green has basically never returned a thing from the graveyard to the battlefield direct, but it's fine, it can return things to your hand and cheat them out in other ways!"

@Neottolemo: A white/green creature that permanently exiles creatures every other turn. That's not a comical color pie break or anything.

@Mosgon: Someone already did it. It was indeed too strong, in all the wrong ways.

@Daij_Djan: 'Bout 90% sure that mana costs can't actually back-trace and apply conditions onto their source. Also an entire type of mana that nonland mana sources can't interact with. That's not unnecessarily confusing at all. Not seeing how this effect is even remotely Black either. Black doesn't do a thing and then compensate you for it, Black does a thing and then pays for it with interest.

@Scribbl: Where's the Black effect?

Remember, Flavor can be used to justify any number of terrible designs.

Sun, 2018-01-14 15:54
Neottolemo's picture

@The5lacker: Which colour or colours would you put my entry in?

Sun, 2018-01-14 16:51
Moderator Best Set of 2016
Daij_Djan's picture

@The5lacker: Big thanks for your feedback even if you don't like my card Winking smiley To adress your concerns: Snow mana proves tracking back mana sources and having restrictions for them works just fine. Also why is being limited to land sources confusing? Where is the difference to not being able to use blue mana to cast a Shock? Also, there actually are many similar restrictions used already - being restricted to lands only actually is quite lenient compared to other examples. As far as the color pie is concerned: As mentioned, it's a card from Karsus - bending white into the other four colors is a theme there (I know this -kind of required?- knowledge might not make it a perfect fit for a CotW challenge.). Still, Gild proves it's a bend rather than a break even if compensations are indeed primarily white's thing.

EDIT: Actually, ignore my first entry. I wanted to use it as I didn't really have any other inspiration (except for a nice rip-off a Top50 Vintage card) for this challenge (and kind of wanted to promote my new set, most likely Winking smiley ) - but now I actually have a more original concept instead:

Sun, 2018-01-14 23:22
The5lacker's picture

@Neottolemo: White/Black or straight-up Black-est black. Permanent exile of creatures has been firmly planted within Black's slice of the color pie as an alternative to normal stabbing, depending on the circumstance. I will also say that a 4/4 flyer for 5 doing this is... concerning. Having evasive beaters doubling as repeatable removal makes for an unfun, noninteractive environment.

@Daij_Djan: The difference is all Red mana symbol is always Red mana symbol no matter where the Red mana symbol comes from. Be it from Mountains or Artifacts or Sorceries or Planeswalkers, Red mana symbol is Red mana symbol. Red mana symbol is not Blue mana symbol. That's a nonsense point, dude. Where a mana comes from is arbitrary. You can track it, but it's clearly always been a one-way street for good reason.

Also, Gild doesn't give them the gold token dude. That sweet statue is all yours.

I do like your new card, though. It's... odd. Odd enough to be a clear homage without being so odd as to not make sense in and of itself. The temptation to cast it on yourself is high, as a good black spell should be.

Remember, Flavor can be used to justify any number of terrible designs.

Sun, 2018-01-14 23:26
Moderator Best Set of 2016
Daij_Djan's picture

Well, we obviously won't agree on mined mana - but I do have to admit I remembered Gild completely wrong..

Anyway, glad you like my new entry A happy smile

Sun, 2018-01-14 23:44
Asthanius's picture

@The5lacker: While I appreciate the thought behind your response, I wish you had refrained from assuming I'm making excuses in order to justify my design. Not only that, but you also seem to be claiming that if there's an effect, only one color can do it. Just because White can reanimate enchantments, that doesn't necessarily mean Green can't. If we go through what Green has brought back from the graveyard before, we see it's brought back creatures (Reincarnation; Sekki, Seasons' Guide; Vengevine; Moldgraf Monstrosity) and lands (Restore; Titania, Protector of Argoth; Splendid Reclamation; World Shaper), so there's at least a reason to look into other things for it to be able to bring back. If we then look at what Green as a color cares about, we see Green can care about enchantments outside of enchantment-themed sets (the Enchantress cards; Vernal Equinox; Oath of the Ancient Wood; Benefaction of Rhonas), so that's support for looking into Green specifically bringing back enchantments. We also need to see if doing so would "solve" one of Green's weaknesses, because that would mean we shouldn't do it. What are Green's weaknesses? Well, it's over-reliant on its creatures and it can't have creatures with flying (outside of important cycles). Getting back an enchantment doesn't seem to undercut a weakness of Green's, so that's good!

And finally, let's look at what's in Green's slice of the Mechanical Color Pie. Under Secondary, it says "friendly to enchantments". At the bottom of the page, MaRo defines this as "a wide range of things where you either help that card type (making it cheaper to cast, enhancing it in some way, using it to generate an effect, etc.) or that card type helps you (you get rewarded for playing that card type, having a certain number on the battlefield or in your hand or in the graveyard grants abilities, you can sacrifice them as a resource, etc.)". We want to know if that covers bringing it back from the graveyard, so let's look at what else Green is friendly to. Under Primary, it says Green is friendly to creatures and lands. Now, it also says that Green is Secondary in creature reanimation, but it doesn't say anything about land reanimation even though we know that's in Green's slice of the color pie. The only explanation I can think of is that land reanimation must be included under "friendly to lands". After all, this article was put out on June 5, 2017; Eldritch Moon (which has Splendid Reclamation) came out in July of 2016 - one year earlier. Now, if land-reanimation is included with "friendly to lands", then logically enchantment reanimation should be included with "friendly to enchantments". Besides, White has nothing in that article that explicitly says it can reanimate enchantments, so that bolsters the argument that it falls under "friendly to enchantments", which both colors have.

Let's go back to your examples with Black countering spells, Green/Red straight-up destroying creatures, and Blue destroying artifacts. For Black countering spells, I honestly believe that comes down to balance; if Black could counter spells, it'd be far too powerful. It wouldn't have to dip into Blue for that effect, and could therefore get all of its controlling aspects from a single color while splashing only one more color for win-conditions. For Green and Red destroying creatures, though, those both undercut the weaknesses of those colors. Green is over-reliant on its own creatures, and therefore can only destroy creatures via combat or the Fight ability (fighting with a deathtouch creature on ETB is functionally identical to "destroy target creature" in most situations, so it doesn't count and is a fairly weak argument). Red is weak to large threats as a result of its reliance on speed, and can therefore only deal with creatures (when outside of combat) if the creatures are small, or if Red utilizes multiple burn spells on a single target. And finally, Blue can't destroy artifacts because it's a reactive color. It's not supposed to permanently deal with things that are already on the battlefield, which is why it counters spells and bounces things; countering spells is how it permanently answers something, and bouncing a permanent is Blue's temporary answer to a threat.

EDIT: Oh, and regarding Daij_Djan's previous entry, there have been cards that care about where mana comes from. Namely, Imperiosaur can only be cast with mana from basic lands, and Myr Superion can only be cast with mana from creatures.

Mon, 2018-01-15 10:35
Neottolemo's picture

@The5lacker: It's stronger removal than Glorybringer, sure, but it lacks haste and fits less decks because it's two colours. I want to keep it two colours for that reason. Do you think it could fit Black mana symbolGreen mana symbol? If not, I'll have to change the flavour. Also, I've been thinking of changing it to -4/-4 instead of exiling another creature to slightly power it down: would that be wise, and what colour combinations would it fit, at that point?

Mon, 2018-01-15 11:51
Moderator Best Set of 2016
Daij_Djan's picture

This challenge is noww closed - next will be up soon!

Poll will be up either rather late today (european time) or tomorrow, as it's my birthday today and I'm spending some time with my family Winking smiley