Conclusions

Login or register to post comments
Sun, 2017-10-15 01:17
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Conclusions
All Suns Must Set
an Origins-style fluffyDeathbringer/marioware2 collaboration with assistance from the unofficial MSE Discord channel
Special thanks to Korakhos, Cajun, HerziQuerzi, thehuw, ZephyrPhantom, Neottolemo, Timespiraled, and Sylphiod

If there's anything I've learned from Kaleidoscope, it's this: trying to tell a story through cards alone is a dicey venture. You've got all the stuff between the pieces filled up in your head; but all everyone else sees are the pieces, and so you'll leave gaps in understanding that you don't even see. With that in mind, today's outing will be spoiled more carefully, and with (hopefully) less confusion involved.

Of course, I didn't make 249 cards just to tell some stories. I've also pushed myself in terms of card design -- making a whole 249 card set has been exhausting, and I didn't think I could do it. But here I am, months later. I couldn't have done any of this, flavour or cards, without your support. Thank you for finding it within yourselves to be invested in this stupid thing I got into my head to do.

Now then... which story would you like to hear first?

> The tale of the reckoner.
> The tale of the wandering fool.
> The tale of the sealed calamity.
> The tale of the general.
> The tale of the steel-worn.

Things to Expect

- 15+ distinct tokens
- a new take on the Rusalka cycle
- a new DFC mechanic
- ten custom planes
- renowned cards, back in a new form
- a monowhite planeswalker whose abilities all involve dealing damage

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Sun, 2017-10-15 02:15
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Awyiss it's finally here. I vote the sealed calamity.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sun, 2017-10-15 02:24
ZephyrPhantom
Moderator
ZephyrPhantom's picture

Wandering fools are relatable, they get my vote.


On hiatus
Looking for fun? Try Battle Boards!

Sun, 2017-10-15 10:42
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Yooo, it's ready! Nice! Big smile
I'd vote for the general, since I think I know who that is and I liked that character, but since there's a tie and I like the mystery, I'll go with the wandering fool instead!

Sun, 2017-10-15 12:32
thehuw
thehuw's picture

I'm only a stationary fool, so it has to be the wandering one for me.

Also, good heavens, the hype is real.

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Set Huwb
They/them pronouns, please.
Praise Vectron.

Sun, 2017-10-15 23:06
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

This first post won't be the full story: I'm trying to get back into the hang of prose and feeling out the sort of style I'll be using. The update does contain three spoiler cards, though!

Idyll, part 1

A story of arrogance and its reward. A story of innocence, its transience, and the futility of regaining it once lost.

The story of Orria.

Novea, the Newborn World

Our story begins in a world awash in life, the first of a god from before the gods fell. Innocent and cruel alike, so very much like an infant -- and who would better reflect that spirit than one by the name of Orria Mirrorpelt? Too clever by several halves, yet too skilled by instinct to face repercussion -- no wonder she thought herself immortal, like all tricksters do. Her mind abuzz with a thousand tricks and her belly full of Novea's bounty, she had no time to dream of an end to her paradise.

But a jester either takes off the cap or hangs from its sleeves.

The seas of Novea were ruled by a wrathful queen, and fooled royalty makes for royal fools; how could Orria have resisted such tantalizing fruit? "Watch," she called to the fearful pack she'd left behind, "that queen will flounder like a common carp stranded ashore, and we will laugh her into the sea's deepest trench." The plan itself is lost to the mists of time. Perhaps that's for the best -- those who learn from history are doomed to repeat it, after all. But no plan survives contact with the enemy, and hate makes for unpredictable reactions; the queen was deceived, yes, and incensed, but her hatred demanded more immediate sacrifice than Orria had predicted. What followed was not a defeat, for that would imply that there had been time enough for a battle to occur. In one moment, the sea rose; in another, it fell. Orria's first consequence came crashing down, breaking bone and bruising organ as it did. But not all of her dreams of immortality were dreams; as the sea rose again, as Orria could do nothing but pray, something heard her. The seas fell on empty shores; Orria ascended, and fell through the walls of reality.

Itsk, the Migrant World

A million-to-one chance on top of a million-to-one chance: an ignited spark, and a first walk to a world that moves through the void itself. If Orria could've comprehended her blessing, her pain would no doubt have dulled it. As she lay and recovered, the world around her changed faster than she could keep up with; ocean became saltflat became forest, desert became farmland became desert. It was beginning to sink in to Orria exactly how small she was.

Eventually, Orria was found. Humans had been a grim people in Novea; yet here they were exuberant, gladly sharing of their supplies and eagerly bringing her up to speed. Her arrival was special, they said; Itsk takes people and places alike like a whale devours so much krill, yet she'd come alone. Another had, once upon a time, yet far more gracefully; one who called themself a planeswalker. They'd stayed a spell, then left -- but the survivors make sure to remember to this day, defying a world that laughs at remembrance.

As Orria listened, her bluster quickly returned. Of course there was hope. Of course nothing was lost. She was Orria Mirrorpelt, who had reflected away death itself! Orria, who'd risen highest of all Novea! Orria, first to walk to other worlds! She would return, and tell stories of Itsk, and the naiad queen would dry of envy!

As soon as she knew how to leave, of course, which she wouldn't for quite some time. Would she return? Yes and no. But that is a story for another time...

By the way, this set wasn't intended for Limited. It wasn't designed with it in mind; this is a collection of cards, nothing more, as I felt making a full-length set was challenge enough. Do bear that in mind when evaluating the cards.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Mon, 2017-10-16 18:39
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Interesting beginning! I really liked the style. The "not for Limited" thing means that the Survivor works at common, I think. The Capuchins feel a bit Red mana symbol, but I can see it as a bend in Blue mana symbol, sure. I instinctively dislike Orria's first ability because fateseal, but that may be just me. The -6 Loyalty feels a bit overpriced on her. I really like her second ability, though.

Sat, 2017-10-21 22:24
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

I started writing this story before finishing Idyll, so I guess I'm doing everyone's part 1 first. Sorry Stick out your tongue

Esteem, part 1

A story of glory and its meaning. A story of power, and the power it holds over us.

The story of Esthani.

Alara, the Composite World

Fate gives a gift to all children. Greatness to some. Suffering to others. To Esthani, it gave servitude.

But first, before anyone knew what Esthani was, it gave her happiness. "Good Luck Esthani," the Naya adults would call her; they'd pat her head in that way that always made her giggle, and take her along to race with the gods and guard the settlements. Esthani loved being part of it all, too happy to notice if she was being looked down at; the ones she looked up to were in turn looking at her, regardless. With a child's appetite, she was content; through a child's understanding, she had power.

But all children must lose their innocence, like milk teeth. Esthani's began to dangle when one day, in the height of rapture, she cheered a taunter on -- and her flames jumped to heights almost as gargantuan as the beast she was pushing onward, driving it to another direction entirely.

What happened next, after some seconds of shock all around, happened in a blur: Esthani was quickly dragged away from the scene, sat down in an elder's hut, and asked if she had felt anything stir within her. Afraid she was going to be punished for the failure, afraid of the unknowable stir that she'd felt before, she could only look to the ground -- until the elder smiled and said "Don't be afraid. If this is what I think it is, you're not in trouble. You have a gift, Esthani. You're very special indeed." Like so many children, she'd dreamt of being special, and so of course she told them everything. It was then that they knew what she was: an amplifier, a mage of the kind rarely seen. And it was then that fate gave its second gift.

It was decided that she would be trained. At first, she was eager -- at last, she was on the way to becoming like the adults she'd admired! No more just a good luck charm, but an equal! But the cruel truth of supporters is that they're so very easy to become accustomed to. To be taken for granted. Over the years, reverence of Esthani's gift turned into mere respect, which turned into desensitization, which turned into entitlement. Gracious pleas became requests became demands, and little by little, they eroded Esthani's soul. The elder had tried to stop it from happening, even instructing his most trusted to make sure Esthani could have a life of her own; but after his death, in the glow of Esthani's magic, they lost sight of that noble goal. She was still "Good Luck Esthani"; but now, she was nothing else, neglected when not needed.

One day, she could endure it no longer. In the dead of blissful night, when there was only silence from the voices that treated her as a given, Esthani descended from the canopies, feet lightened by romantic dreams. Would she learn the sword, and be a revered knight? Would she catch the heart of a noble, and never know want again? Whatever place awaited past the horizon, she decided as she set out to a direction hastily picked, would be better than the half-life back home.

Sadly, the direction she'd picked was Jund, and its dragonlords suffer no glory but their own. The first chapter of Esthani's own story ended at the jaws of a monster, as do those of so many Jund-dwellers -- or rather, it would have, had the horror not ignited her planeswalker's spark. An honour bestowed to few, it indeed made her the star of her own unique tale.

Pity, then, that it would be a tragedy.

Weltall, the Enclosed World

Esthani came to on an unfamiliar surface -- metal, but worked in a way alien against her skin. An enclosed dwelling, with no green in sight -- it reminded Esthani of stories of Esper as she rose and took stock, but it matched nothing she'd seen of the plane so far. There was certainly an absence of dragon, regardless, and fear subsided as romance returned. Of course, thought Esthani, I've been spirited away to another world! A planeswalker, like in all those stories! Esthani was filled with glee -- and in this, she noticed an absence. Her amplifier's magic was gone from inside her; in its place, something different, something that felt like sunlight in her belly.

She gave it an experimental push -- and a surge of mana erupted from her hand, making a notable dent in the steel wall. Esthani was too enraptured by her power to be horrified at the strength, and just had to try again. Another push, easier this time -- clearly the sweet, sunlight-y something within wanted to be used -- and the mana came out in a ray now, pushing her back slightly and bursting through the wall in earnest. The terrified faces of the people through the hole gave Esthani some pause, but the pause ended in triumph -- to think that she, mousy Esthani, always told to come along like she existed only to serve, could inspire such terror! Uncontrollable laughter bubbled up from inside her, and raw power poured out along with it, exploding with terrifying force. The laughter stopped. The power didn't.

It occurred to Esthani that she didn't know how to stop it.

As the steel house around her broke apart, Esthani screamed, bit her lip until it bled, and poured all her will into containing what had given her such rapture. But the power mounted on and on, reducing everything around her to rubble and corpses, then to ash, then to blinding white that was rocking the foundations of the plane itself. If I don't stop now, I'll destroy the world. The words struck her heart like an ice-cold sword. Nothing to gain. No one to care for her. The yawning void of nonexistence, or worse yet, existence alone. That coldness seeped through Esthani, giving her strength -- and in one desperate grasp, she wrenched herself in, and dragged herself across the Eternities on instinct. Behind her, Weltall broke apart. And now you know why it is a Magnificent Isle.

Esthani had found power. But would she have power over it? That is a story for another time...

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Sat, 2017-10-21 22:43
Korakhos
Korakhos's picture

Beautiful story thus far, I already told you this, but your writing style is quite compelling, I really like how your writing draws you into the story.

Sat, 2017-10-21 22:50
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Did a slight rewrite of the end bit of Esteem part 1 (thanks Cajun for the idea).

@everyone: wow thank you for all the nice words and caring and investment, why can't I hold all of it

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Sun, 2017-10-22 10:12
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Those cards are pretty cool! Kind of unfortunate how you can't always +2 Loyalty Esthani, but that's kind of the point, so I'm alright with it. The story was awesome and Esthani is now one of my favourite characters here because of it Big smile

Sat, 2017-10-28 01:37
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Rest, part 1

A story of how violence perpetuates itself. A story of grudge-closed eyes, and their violent opening.

The story of Ashen-Heart.

Ashen-Heart. A baleful name no loving parent gives and no happy soul chooses. Yet the one who chose it began his life as a child just like you.

Shandalar, the Bountiful World

Below the mountains of Valkas, there was a family of shepherds, far from Shandalar's many conflicts. Its only child, his first name lost to time, knew a life of peace, where a broken leg from an ill-fated mountain climb was the worst his world had to offer. Despite being a large and strong lad indeed, he had no violent bone in his body; when the conscriptors wove their tales of glory and adventure to entice the youth to their deaths, the shepherd's son gave no heed. His glory was in his hearth, and tracking rams of the winsome kind was adventure enough.

Thus the peaceful child grew into a peaceful man... but everything changed when the goblins of Kalonia came.

They struck the softer places, the farmers and crafters; some say it was for resources, others for cowardly revenge. They killed, nevertheless, with ferocity and cruel skill. The shepherd's son, all that made sense to him burning away with the crops and the corpses, could only stare frozen in horror and mounting hate -- and a perverse adoration of the invaders' power. So consumed he was that he noticed the force heading towards his family's house far too late to stop it. As they died, so did he -- and a new man was ripped into the Eternities.

Lorwyn, the Pastoral World

The boggarts hadn't seen a creature such as him -- was he some kind of hornless elf? A giant kithkin? Whatever he was, he was coated head to toe in ashes, and he was a new sight -- so of course they crowded around him. And of course, bewildered by the change of scenery and surrounded by the monsters that took his life from him, he lashed out. He screamed things he couldn't really hear, struck with untrained blows, radiated a horrifying rage -- and when the crimson haze cleared and he could think again, the horrible things were cowed in submission, like the sheep back home after a disciplining. The sight struck him like a heady wine -- the wretched goblins, ready to obey /him/! Their horrible power his to stoke to the glory he'd witnessed, his to wield for himself in this new, cruel world! The little part of him that had craved dominion, suppressed in Shandalar out of softness of heart, rose to the forefront.

As the goblins still trembled silently, he realized three things; that he had changed, that he didn't care, and that he had to strike quickly or the glorious scene before him would end. "I am Ashen-Heart!" he cried out in anger, the improvised name feeling so very strong and right. "And you are now mine."

That was Ashen-Heart's first squadron. It would not be the last. In the decades to come, Ashen-Heart would grow stronger and stronger and beat goblin after goblin into his servitude -- crudely at first, but as he gained more and more knowledge of the many faces of war, his squadrons across the planes would grow more and more regimented. When asked why he'd choose only goblins as his trainees, he'd always say: "Because goblins are strong, but stupid and unorganized. Under me, they can reach their full potential." Perhaps he even believed it -- but curiously, reaching their full potential would always involve the benefit of Ashen-Heart himself.

Nevertheless, the goblins would toil, until...

Zhurene, the Dying World



It was a hardy squadron that Ashen-Heart had trained on Zhurene, teaching them to extract the last bit of sustenance from the dead land and marching them across the lands until they could march on all terrain. Their hearts had been hardened by Zhurene, and Ashen-Heart had hardened them still; he expected to see the goblins still cutting a swath across Zhurene, taking all they could take for him to then take a "commander's tax" from in turn. What Ashen-Heart didn't expect was his squadron drawing their blades on him, defiance in their eyes, and declaring that they'd protect Zhurene from him.

There had been a woman, carrying a rug and a lantern wherever she went, laying them down by the roadsides for a lit place to rest. By the time the squadron had seen her first, she was already dying, exposure and starvation having taken their toll -- but upon seeing the goblins, she'd still smiled a weary smile and offered her only possessions for them to use. Too baffled to simply rob her, they'd asked "Why?", to which she'd replied: "The world doesn't care. So I must." Upon her death, the soldiers had looked at each other, coming to a consensus as one; they'd taken the rug and the lantern, carried on, and laid them down for the next weary survivor they'd seen.

Ashen-Heart had not faced resistance for years, so frightening he had become, and so summoning his full oppressive will took him a few seconds too many -- the squadron, their fear of their once-leader banished by a purer thing, swarmed him and overcame him. In desperation, he leapt into the Eternities, but not before sustaining wounds -- and so he could not control his walk. Where did he end up? That is a story for another time...

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Sat, 2017-10-28 19:51
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Bonus mechanic spoiler!

Legacy

"No life leaves this world without leaving a mark on it."
-- Bel, Conspiring Skyscriber

The trend of DFC mechanics continues from Kaleidoscope -- but whereas Ascend was Herzi's brainchild, this one's a fluffyDeathbringer original. (Well, its not exactly an original mechanic, but eh.) When a creature with legacy dies, whoever controlled it at the time exiles it from its owner's graveyard; in exile, it is then transformed, revealing its other side. The player who controlled the creature when it died may cast the card's other side from exile like one would cast a normal card from one's hand; when the spell resolves (or the permanent on the other side is destroyed, as is the case with a few rare Legacy cards), the card is put into its owner's graveyard creature side up, where it stays for good.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Sun, 2017-10-29 04:42
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Fluffster, you're missing the "Enchant opponent" line on the curse.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2017-10-29 05:06
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

dang u right

added it in, thanks

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Tue, 2017-10-31 08:41
TempestCloud

Hi! I really like the legacy mechanic but I have a doubt, are the back faces intended to be able to be cast from hand?

Edit: Maybe you wanted the transform circles to be exactly as they are, but there are suns and moons and type symbols mixed. Just in case it wasn't on purpose.

Tue, 2017-10-31 09:09
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Thank you for your interest in the set! I intended the circles to be as they are, and the back faces are intended to be cast from exile, since the card's exiled upon death.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Tue, 2017-10-31 10:30
Cajun
Cajun's picture

You've got Creature > Sorcery, Sun > Moon, and Creature > Moon on the dfc nodes is the concern. Doesn't appear to be consistent.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Tue, 2017-10-31 10:54
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Crap, so I do. I intended it all to be based on card types, but it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention. Will standardize that.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Wed, 2017-11-01 13:42
TempestCloud

I asked about legacy because mtg rules state that dfc only have the characteristics of the front face while outside the battlefield and also only permanents can transform and only permanents can be transformed, not cards in exile.

So, you need to change or add some rules to allow "the existence" of the back face outside the battlefield. And then look for a way to allow or restrict (depending on the other changes) from where the back face can be cast. Probably with a simple ability on the back face. And probably there will be no need for the part that "transforms" the front face.

Edit: I think the rules saying that back face characteristics "don't exist" outside the battlefield is a recent change. I didn't remember it that way. But I think they changed it because otherwise the "treasure" lands of Ixalan could be played from back face directly onto the battlefield.

Wed, 2017-11-01 13:59
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Rules are Greek to me, so if anyone feels like helping with that, I'd appreciate it.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Wed, 2017-11-01 17:59
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

You could fudge it by making the relevant rules part of legacy and not bother with the reminder text. As is, yeah, you can't have it exist transformed anywhere bitbut the battlefield

Wed, 2017-11-01 20:56
TempestCloud

I think the simplest way would be to add a change of rules to your set by which dfc "don't have" back face on hand but they do on other zones. Or just in exile (if you want to avoid casting back faces from graveyard perhaps).

And then the legacy keyword would be part in the front face: "When this creature dies, exile it."
And part on the back face: "You may cast this card from exile".

Edit: In fact you should have in back faces an ability that says "You may cast this card ONLY from exile". Regardless of the legacy ability.
Because dfc once you use the top-left circles for other purposes than stating which face is front and which is back the only thing that make the faces distinguishable are the small differences in the frame. And that's not a game-relevant characteristic (as it happens with card color), so basically, your dfc front and back faces are indistinguishable. So you would need an ability that restricts one of the faces anyway.

Edit 2: CONCLUSION: My advice is:

1. An implicit rule for your set that says that "back faces" exist (at least) in exile.
2. Front faces legacy reminder should only say "When this creature dies, exile it."
3. Back faces should have an ability that says "You can cast this card only from exile."

As just exiling a creature when dying may not reflect exactly the flavor of the keyword "legacy", maybe you could do (and would look awesome in my opinion) the "legacy" keyword display aonly the appropiate ability in each face.
This way:

Steadfast Sentry 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Creature - Bird Warrior
Flying
Legacy(When this creature dies, exile it.)

Soar to Action 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol
Sorcery
Legacy (You may cast this card only from exile.)
Create two 1/1 white Bird creature tokens with flying.

Wed, 2017-11-01 21:06
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I don't like that fix very much. The problem with that is that your solution makes your spells impossible to check cmc's with (because current rules make it clear the cmc is the front face) and also enables casting the back side with something as easy as Abbot of Keral Keep. Right now the death effect is way better because you can use the balancing tool of the front side and don't get to randomly skip it entirely.

Wed, 2017-11-01 21:25
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
Daij_Djan's picture

Normally you can't exile stuff transformed, that's definitely correct. However I think the "Golden Rule" covers Legecy the way it is just fine. Maybe add some reminder text to the backside? Like: (You may cast this side from exile.)

EDIT: Btw, really like the set so far! A happy smile

As Photobucket wants me to pay 400$/year to link to my images, I'll relocate all renders.

Thu, 2017-11-02 01:50
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Quote:
711.4a While a double-faced card is outside the game, in a zone other than the battlefield unless a spell or ability transformed it as it was put into that zone, or on the battlefield with its front face up, it has only the characteristics of its front face.

added the bold, now Legacy works without breaking anything.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Thu, 2017-11-02 16:54
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Yeah, like Daij said it can just be part of the Legacy rules and "the cards overrule the rules" makes it work

Thu, 2017-11-02 18:42
Cajun
Cajun's picture

This also allows for casting cards transformed without needing a mechanic to hide rules text in.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sat, 2017-11-04 11:52
TempestCloud

Cajun wrote:
added the bold, now Legacy works without breaking anything.

That addition wouldn't make legacy work as it is. But also it is against the rules itself so it would create a contradiction in rules.

701.26a reads in part "Only permanents represented by double-facec cards can transform."
Because for the game "transform" is something that permanents do, not cards which are physical objects and won't "transform" into anything even if you instruct it.

So, cards cannot transform according to rules.

Additionally, if they were to transform somehow, you cannot transform anything into instant or sorcery cards. If you try that, rule 701.26d says "nothing happens".

And then, even if we consider the addition valid, the legacy keyword as is written consists of triggered ability and a static ability.
The triggered makes it "transform" upon dying. (This is what your addition tries to fix.)

But the static ability is what lets you cast it. But if the card is "trnasformed" then its front face is hidden and the static ability that lets you cast it is not applying. So you wouldn't be able to cast it.

Really, it's easier to just let dfc have two sets of characteristics in exile regardless of how they were brought there and then letting cast only the ones that have the appropiate permission ability in the right side, because abilities act as though cards had only one set of characteristics. They don't know about back faces.

Sat, 2017-11-04 16:48
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Context is important.

Quote:
701.26a To transform a permanent, turn it over so that its other face is up. Only permanents represented by double-faced cards can transform. (See rule 711, “Double-Faced Cards.”)
The point of this rule is permanents that aren't DFCs can't transform.
Quote:
701.26d If a spell or ability instructs a player to transform a permanent, and the face that permanent would transform into is represented by an instant or sorcery card face, nothing happens.
The point of this line is an instant or sorcery can't be on the battlefield.

Quote:
But the static ability is what lets you cast it.
Welcome to the world of legalese.

not for the faint of heart
Transform wrote:
701.26a To transform a card, turn it over so that its other face is up. Only cards represented by double-faced cards can transform. (See rule 711, “Double-Faced Cards.”)
701.26c If a spell or ability instructs a player to transform a card that isn’t represented by a double-faced card, nothing happens.

Legacy wrote:
702.000. Legacy
702.000a Legacy is a triggered ability of some double-faced cards. "Legacy" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, exile that card transformed. As long as that card remains transformed in exile, you may cast it from exile. If you do, it remains transformed as it is put on the stack, and if that spell becomes a permanent, the permanent that spell becomes remains transformed."
702.000b The back face of a card with legacy has a mana cost. The converted mana cost of the back face is determined by this mana cost.
702.000c A card exiled with its legacy ability can be cast with alternate mana costs, such as Fist of Suns.
702.000d The player that controlled the permanent with legacy when it died will control its legacy ability.
702.000e Once a nonpermanent spell cast with its legacy ability leaves the stack or a permanent cast with its legacy ability leaves the battlefield, it will return to its front face.
702.000f If the card with legacy is no longer in its owner's graveyard when the legacy ability resolves, it can't be exiled and the rest of the ability will do nothing.
702.000g Legacy exiling the card isn't optional. If the card with legacy is still in its owner's graveyard as the legacy ability resolves, it will be exiled.

Double Faced Cards wrote:
711.1a The front face of a double-faced card with legacy is the face that has legacy.
711.1b The back face of a double-faced card with legacy with face that doesn't have legacy.

711.4a While a double-faced card is outside the game, in a zone other than the battlefield unless a spell or ability transformed it as it was put into that zone, or on the battlefield with its front face up, it has only the characteristics of its front face.
711.4b While a double-faced permanent’s back face is up, it has only the characteristics of its back face. If it doesn't have a mana cost, its converted mana cost is calculated using the mana cost of its front face. If a permanent is copying the back face of a double-faced card (even if the card representing that copy is itself a double-faced card), the converted mana cost of that permanent is 0.

711.7. If a double-faced card is cast as a spell, it’s put on the stack with its front face up unless a spell or ability transformed it as it was cast. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sat, 2017-11-04 23:16
TempestCloud

There's something I don't understand: Assuming all this rule changings are functional (which they aren't), isn't my proposal way more simple, way easier to understand and way less game-changing?

What's so wrong with it that there's a need for looking for this really complex solution?

And then, about the points in rules:

Spoiler:
The point in 701.26a is not what you say.

The point is to define the concept of "transforming". And it is defined as something only permanents do.
Permanents and cards are different things.
Permanents are abstract entities while cards are physical objects.
Permanents are often represented by a card. That means, a card tells you which characteristics has the permanent.
But they can also be represented by a token.

Abstract entities can transform because they are game concepts like creatures or artifacts. They belong to the part of the game that occurs in the imaginary multiverse where a creature can effectively transform and that is what the keyword transform represents.

Physical objects like cards cannot transform unless you bend or tear a card and consider that a transformation. But that's not what the game means by transforming as it doesn't change game-relevant characteristics nor turning a card or a token over doesn't transform it into anything else at all.

YES, the point in 701.26d is to prevent nonpermanents to be on the battlefield. But regardless of what the rule tries to accomplish, it forbids to transform into instants or sorceries no matter what.

About your rules changing:

Spoiler:
I have already written on how "transforming" cards is breaking the game concepts.
But your 701.26c talks about cards that are represented by (double-face) cards... Cards aren't represented by cards. They just are themselves.

702.000a makes 711.7 absurd since 702.000a talks about "remaining transformed" and not "transforming as it's cast".
Although 702.000a is wrong in itself because it says that a exiled card remains transformed as a spell that remains transformed as a permanent. But the rules of the game make it clear that permanents and spells and cards are different objects and also that objects that change zones become new objects as they enter the new zone.

So, when you cast a spell, you are creating a new object that is the spell. The card that represents it is no more than a token with the relevant information written on it. The spell cannot remain transformed because it was never transformed to begin with and also spells cannot be transformed. Nor in actual rules nor in your changings either.
The same applies to the permanents. When the spell resolves, a permanent is created. It cannot remain transformed.

And last, I'm very curious as to why have you included that 702.000d rule.
Where was that behavior said to be part of the legacy ability?

Anyway, notice that "when something dies" or "when something is put into a graveyard from" triggers from the graveyard. By the time the legacy ability triggers:
- There is no permanent. The permanent ceased to exist. Now the card is a new object unrelated to the already non-existing permanent. So the game cannot find the permanent "the card was" and hence it cannot find that controller either.
- The card has no controller and the controller of the ability will be its owner.
And then the card will be exiled, so it changes zones again and even if you want to say that it is possible to have another player control the exile trigger, now is absolutely impossible to find the controller the way that rule says, so the controller of the static part of legacy that lets the card be cast from exile would be controlled by its owner regardless of that rule.

Sun, 2017-11-05 00:58
HerziQuerzi
Creative Direction Award Best Mechanic Award
HerziQuerzi's picture

Your proposal is more game-changing because of the aforementioned impulse drawing/other exile means letting you skip the front side, plus some CMC confusion edge cases. Cajun's is only complicated behind the scenes; in terms of actual gameplay it lets it work in the most intuitive way.

Phasing
This phases in or out before you untap during each of your untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.
Set Hub

Sun, 2017-11-05 01:04
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Quote:
Permanents and cards are different things.
Quote:
110. Permanents
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield.
Basically the rest of your post continues to misunderstand basic rules, like who controls death triggers, and how abilities can find a card as it moves from zone to zone.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sun, 2017-11-05 12:13
TempestCloud

Well, I think that letting the "legacy cards" become "a legacy" even if the card ends up in exile some other way not only isn't a problem for gaming purposes but it's also flavorfully legitimate. Though in any case, that's only up to fluffyDeathbringer to decide. So I don't know why anyone else would just discourage my solution based on that.

@Cajun:

Spoiler:
Quote:
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it’s moved to another zone by an effect or rule.

The poin in that rule is for players to know that cards on the battlefield aren't cards, what's on the battlefield are permanents. So effects that talk about cards don't affect "cards that are physically on the place that represents the battlefield representing a permanent".

And that is why for the game (and for anyone) cards are not permanents and permanents are not cards. The rule says it. "Cards" become permanents upon entering the battlefield and then stop being permanents as they leave it. An object is never a permanent and a card at the same time. So they are totally different things.

Quote:
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it’s a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.

"Death triggers" read as "when [this] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, [effect]".
So, they trigger when something IS on the graveyard.
On the graveyard there are only cards. Cards, unlike virtual objects, have no controller, just owner.
The controller of abilities whose source is something without a controller is the owner of the source.
So, the controller of "death triggers" is the owner of the card.

Maybe you confused them with abilities that trigger upon the death of others. Obviously those abilities whose source is something that's still on the battlefield are controlled by the player that controls the source and that (usually) hasn't changed after the death of others.

Quote:
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

Quote:
604.7. Unlike spells and other kinds of abilities, static abilities can’t use an object’s last known information for purposes of determining how their effects are applied.

Object's last known information is something that ONLY one-shot effects use if they need information that was supposed to be available at the time they were created but the object that had it isn't were it was EXPECTED to be.
The effects CANNOT find the object as it changes zones to determine the info and then uses the last known info.

When the effect by which "your legacy" tries to determine who the controller of the ability is is created, there is no permanent expected to be anywhere to determine who its controller is. And thus there's also no last known information to use. Because the permanent ceased to exist before the effect tried to reference it so that's just an action that cannot be done and becomes a "nothing happens".

But after all "Your legacy" tries to define statically who the controller of the ability is. And this kind of effects NEVER used last known information because they are continous and must use current information that's updated constantly.

Quote:
603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game “looks back in time” to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:

Spoiler:
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.

603.10b Abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out look back in time.
603.10c Abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached look back in time.
603.10d Abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object look back in time.
603.10e Abilities that trigger when a spell is countered look back in time.
603.10f Abilities that trigger when a player loses the game look back in time.
603.10g Abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane look back in time.


This means, ONLY triggers can look back in time (for the game-state) to decide whether they trigger or not. And only a handful of triggers that otherwise would make no sense. This is obviously not the case of legacy.

But the question remains, why that part?

Sun, 2017-11-05 15:23
Cajun
Cajun's picture

@TempestCloud: If what you're saying is correct, Endless Whispers, Academy Rector, Cloudshift, and many, many other cards do not work.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Mon, 2017-11-06 00:26
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Uh, @TempestCloud, permanents are cards if they are cards. It doesn't cease to be a card, it just begins to be a permanent.
The controller of a death trigger is the person who controlled the permanent as it was on the battlefield. That's because the ability exists and matters only on the battlefield. That is how every death trigger works.

Mon, 2017-11-06 09:06
TempestCloud

@Cajun and Windy: If you're really interested in the discussion we could take it somewhere else. It made sense to have until now, but if we're already not discussing legacy maybe this is not the appropiate place.

And on the set: I'm really hyped for the renowned creatures!

Mon, 2017-11-06 10:22
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Too bad there aren't any. ^^' There are only two mechanics in Conclusions, and here's the other one.

Remembrance

"Death is the bed on which all worlds rest and the soil from which all deeds grow.
-- Setheret, Awoken

Time passes. Graves fill. The wisdom of the departed, the grief of loss, the resolve to honor those who came before -- it is those who survive who bear death's true weight, heavier by the year.

As a mirror of Origins, Conclusions naturally has a riff on Spell Mastery. I wasn't quite sure how to balance all of the cards with it, so I welcome critique on that when the set drops.


Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Wed, 2017-11-08 18:37
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

And in today's instalment of "re-exposit the character's backstory, but with more florid prose..."

Consequence, part 1

A story of justice and its injustice. A story of bright eyes, blinded by light.

The story of Emmerdrah.

Disturbia, the Controlled World

In a tower of a crumbling castle, an orphan girl watched the carnage unfold under her once again. Emmerdrah's lonely home had been under one lord's power yesterday, it was under another's today, and she knew that it would be under yet another's tomorrow. Her waking self was inured to the horrors of war, her screams of horror at man's depravity already exhausted, hoping only that the next lord would be kind enough to send her to bed with supper -- but in her sleep, she'd dream of sense in the senselessness.

One day, she awoke to the castle's latest occupants slain around her and to a priest clad in purest white smiling down at her. "So you are the girl of the castle who we've been made aware of," he said. "What a cruelty, for a child to have to fend for herself like this... but Queen Elastra's hand reckons all injustice, in time." The priest extended a hand, his eyes looking like the sky in Emmerdrah's dreams. "It'll all be alright now. Come with us, and know justice at last."

And so Emmerdrah became the guest of Queen Elastra. She was adopted by a noble family within the queen's court and treated with demandless love as per Elastra's command -- for in the queen's eyes, she had much to be repaid for. And a loyal and dutiful daughter she was, happily performing chores and doing her best to serve the queen; in Emmerdrah's eyes, Elastra was a marvellous being, the very epitome of the justice she'd dreamt of in her old home. Yet as Emmerdrah grew, so did a certain dissatisfaction within her, some unnameable anxiety that pushed her to always do more, be more. When she watched Elastra's guard train one day, the anxiety took shape, and she knew what to do. The next day, Emmerdrah petitioned to join Elastra's guard, to be a vehicle of the justice she adored.

In the years to come, Emmerdrah would become one of Elastra's most fervent soldiers; when the queen said "punish", she'd punish, and when the queen said "reward", she'd reward. Emmerdrah was content... but such contentment could only ever be given by lies. One calamitous mission, there was more paper in Emmerdrah's briefing than usual -- transaction records for luxurious food and lavish furniture, the sums identical to those Elastra's guard had long ago robbed from corrupt merchants and allegedly redistributed to the poor. The act of a rebellious servant, eager to see the deceitful queen fall? Elastra's latent remorse, breaking into the surface as a deed that would destroy her? Mere carelessness? Whatever the cause, the effect was undeniable. Emmerdrah's faith in her beloved queen broke, and she in turn broke rank to head back to the castle, slaying along the way all former comrades she could find -- for she could only see them as accomplices, errors to be corrected. Behind her, the incriminating papers were trampled by pursuing feet, until they were nothing but scraps.

"Elastra!" she screamed with hate that only broken love can produce as she broke through the throne room doors. "Traitor! Injustice! Answer for yourself!" Elastra merely smiled, waving down the guards that had moved to capture the dissident. "Have you evidence?" she asked, confidently, as if she were in a debate hall rather than faced with mutiny. Emmerdrah reached for the letter -- but it wasn't there. Emmerdrah's righteous rage evacuated her, and she could only gape silently. Had the letter even been there? Had she merely imagined it? Had she gone mad under pressure, to go against her icon? She could barely hear the others speak -- Elastra's guards clamoring for her death, Elastra herself instead ordering them to banish her from the land. Unresisting, she allowed herself to be dragged away -- and the satisfied grin Elastra grinned down at her as they did seemed, to her shattered mind, to be one last token of the kindness she'd received from her queen in that tower so long ago.

What came next before her ignition, I've only heard whispers of. Emmerdrah would roam the world of Disturbia for a year and a day; unable to understand the people outside Elastra's grace, unable to understand herself. Given sanctuary by one Rellekyx, rival to Elastra, she awoke once more to the justice she'd felt while under her former queen's aegis; she attempted to assassinate the rival king, as one last gift to the woman who'd taught her justice, even if she herself was weak. But Rellekyx was strong, and foiled this attempt; the pain of the failure (but perhaps moreso the pain of the dagger plunged into her back) tossed Emmerdrah across the worlds. She would go on to face harrowing journeys, gruesome revelations, and one of the greatest foes a planeswalker has fought... but that is a story for another time.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay

Wed, 2017-11-08 20:50
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

My mind went "BEL BEL BEL BEL" as soon as I saw who you quoted in the legacy spoiler
I love the new cards so far: my favourites among them are definitely Wandering Deceiver/Eternal Paranoia, but I also really like the new 'walkers' a lot Big smile
Personally, I prefer when cards like Pay Dues don't have the "instead", but I think that the few examples of this effect that exist in official MtG use that wording, so, I'd say you're good! Big smile
The remembrance cards are all cool, but I think that First Kill would see play and be balanced even at Black mana symbolBlack mana symbol.
Reversal of Fealty looks a little too strong, even though I agree that Stronghold Discipline isn't that powerful at its cost.
I liked the new story pieces, too! For now, Ashen-Heart and Esthani's stories are definitely my favourites of the Conclusions Five's Big smile

Fri, 2017-11-10 23:52
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
fluffyDeathbringer's picture

Dissolution, part 1

A story of meaning, and how meaning dies. A story of a man who, in a world of grand ambitions, sought the simplest goal there is.

The story of Ixcratios.

Delkor, the Singular World - 1000 years ago



All glory rises from squalor, and even Delkor's resplendence is no exception. Before the marvels of magitek, before the diversity and peace that define it now, Delkor was its very opposite; a vast jungle, cloaked in shadow, populated by predators and prey. It was to this world that a child named Ixcratios was born.

Many in the Multiverse are born in the wrong era or in the wrong world. Ixcratios was both; in a world where metal was scarce, his eyes alit only when working it into tools and trinkets. All else, even survival, was a chore, in no small part thanks to his lack of skill in nigh-everything else, as well as his resulting depression. From child to man, the boy lived for flashes of light from steel's surface and slogged through the rest, devoid of attachment to the world... until one day, on another metal-hunt Ixcratios had cajoled together from half-friends and reckless fools, the world made it clear that he could no longer avoid it.

The Soul of Delkor. Cruelest of predators. Torment of torments -- for what greater suffering is there than to know that the very world you were born in not only sees you, but hates you for that original sin? The beasts, the droughts, the floods; weapons all, of a hostile plane. The Soul is a convulsing black flame that is a still void that is a hatefully grasping hand that is a screaming maw. Where it goes, life ends; withering, falling into ash, corroded as if from acid, erased like so much chalk from a whiteboard.

And as Ixcratios and the rest stared, it came, undulating closer slowly yet quickly. Some managed to flee, keeping one or two limbs in their mad dash. Others, frozen in terror, died ignoble deaths -- the lucky had time to scream. What were their stories? Forgotten, sadly, or never recorded. But, and I doubt you're surprised, Ixcratios would not share their oblivion; the Soul claimed a finger, yes, but the Eternities took it as toll, and horrified Ixcratios fell into another blackness entirely.

Skalor, the Steel-Clad World

Ixcratios awoke in a bed far more comfortable than one he'd ever slept in before, and before him was an older man straight from his daydreams; arm made of magicked metal, artificer's tools in hand, working steel by a workbench far more sophisticated than Delkor's haphazard wooden facsimiles. The building around was small, yet it still felt safer than anything at home; so when Ixcratios' waking rustles roused the artificer from his work, the younger didn't fear. Rather, as introductions were made and explanations given, Ixcratios was surer by the minute that he'd finally found the world he was meant to be born in, one where he could finally be himself...

...and that he would have to return to Delkor, someday. The Soul of the plane had finally carved into him attachment to his home, through horror -- and Skalor had shown him that he could be strong, in his own way, and bring that strength to the battle at home. On the spot, he begged the artificer to take him on as an apprentice. As his skill grew, he would return to Delkor and bring more and more devices with him to help defend against the world's dangers; eventually, those devices would lead him to find a wellspring of steel on Delkor and, with decades of work, establish the safe haven of Kaerem. That, alas, is a story I'm not familiar enough with to recount.

What I do know is that Kaerem gave Ixcratios his dream; purpose and happiness in artifice, to his heart's content. He was useful and needed at last. I know this lasted for years... and I know that it ended. Not for a poetic reason, like his inventions claiming one too many lives or becoming too magnificent to exceed; not for a selfish reason, like desire for more recognition or petty denial of his genius from the world. Perhaps a reason would've made him feel less guilty for the slow death of his passion; but, like it is so commonly with death, there was no reason to be had.

One day, Ixcratios' apprentices found only a farewell note and Ixcratios' personal tools, bequeathed to his next-in-line. His tired soul sought only rest, a place to lay his head and wait for an uneventful end... but would he find it? That is a story for another time.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Avatar by rickenfe13. goats are gay