Reverse Urza's Saga - Complete! Download link in OP

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Wed, 2017-05-10 21:19
fluffyDeathbringer
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In the vein of jacqui-pup's Reverse Alpha project, I want to try doing that with another set. Which set? Well, that's up to y'all. I'm open for suggestions!

This Reverse ____ project will entail the following:

- The cards of the set in question (sans mythic rares) will be divided across 12 participants.
- Each participant will redesign the cards they have received within the bounds of the home set's mechanics and flavour, but with flipped rarities. This means that if you get a common, you have to make it into a rare, and vice versa. If you get an uncommon, just redesign the card.
- This isn't meant to be a set per se (as it will most likely result in skewed rarity amounts), just a mass card design game.

Are people interested? What set should we subject to this?

EDIT: Possible sets:

- an Urza block set
- Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (with additional set flip)
- Fallen Empires
- a Tempest block set
- Homelands
- Arabian Nights
- Planar Chaos

EDIT2: Interest list:

1. ZephyrPhantom
2. jacqui-pup
3. Neottolemo
4. Mocandragon5
5. digiman619
6. aquaumisa
7. Yoshi
8. Vunik
9. Vulgard
10. Cajun
11. Daij_Djan

EDIT3: We're live!

EDIT4: Complete! https://www.dropbox.com/s/wu2vi527z5hn69u/United%20Reverse%20Urza%27s%20Saga.mse-set?dl=0

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Wed, 2017-05-10 21:21
Vulgard
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Sounds like a really cool idea. We could try one of the Urza block sets. We'd make it less overpowered, for certain.

Wed, 2017-05-10 22:04
Cajun
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Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, also flipping sets.

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Thu, 2017-05-11 01:19
ZephyrPhantom
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I was going to start a Fallen Empires one myself afterr I wrapped up Reverse Alpha, so I'd like to put that on the table.


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Thu, 2017-05-11 04:50
digiman619
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I think a reverse Tempest-block set might be cool.

Thu, 2017-05-11 08:30
Daij_Djan
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How about Homelands?

In general it's a good idea to take a rather old set imho - the newer the set, the more cards still work by current design standards, which is rather annoying in this case Winking smiley

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Thu, 2017-05-11 09:05
ZephyrPhantom
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IMHO part of the fun is being able to rebalance cards into more fitting modern standards hence my Fallen Empires pick.


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Thu, 2017-05-11 12:36
Neottolemo
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IIrc, the flipping rarities thing was only introduced because Alpha had more rares than commons. If we pick a more modern set, we should do away with that part.
Anyway, one of the things I loved about Reverse Alpha was how there were a lot of cycles in that set, but they got sort of broken off into different segments, because each player who got one part of the cycle but not the rest of the cycle went off and did their own thing with it, and that was really cute! So, picking a set with a lot of cycles could be cool A happy smile Other than that, I think I have no specific preferences!

Thu, 2017-05-11 12:58
Daij_Djan
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Well, even beyond the scewed rarity distribution of Alpha, changing the rarities way fun. I mean, my pool asked me to make a common version of Animate Wall (tough one, I tell you Stick out your tongue ) and a rare version of Merfolk of the Pearl Trident - and it was hilarious sometimes.

But yeah, you're right about how interesting some cycles have turned out.

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Thu, 2017-05-11 14:13
ZephyrPhantom
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Ditto on the cycles: If time permits I might do a faux spoiler article or two on how some of them like the Moxes turned out.

EDIT: Also, while I do like rarity flipping, I think it might actually be better not to rarity-flip on sets that wouldn't need it for the end result, because then we could have Sealed matches with the resulting sets afterwards. We could always do another theme like "everyone must select one card to remain 'timeshifted'" or "Guild-ify/Phyrexianize the set" or etc...


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Thu, 2017-05-11 18:36
aquaumisa
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OOH OOH! Reverse Arabian Nights! Howabout that? (Given, with only 73 ish cards it would be a very small one.)

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Thu, 2017-05-11 18:56
Mocandragon5
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You can count me in on this. I do see where ZephyrPhantom is coming from on the Sealed thing - that would be very fun indeed and flipping rarity in sets with proper distribution could easily ruin that.

And, my random suggestion, Planar Chaos. Add even more chaos to the chaos.

Thu, 2017-05-11 20:43
digiman619
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Ironically, we would discuss such chaos on discord. That might have nothing to do with this, but it made me chuckle.

Sat, 2017-05-13 02:11
fluffyDeathbringer
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So without rarity flips, how would one redesign, say, a vanilla or a french vanilla?

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Sat, 2017-05-13 02:22
ZephyrPhantom
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Same way most of us did uncommons - same flavor, new idea.


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Sat, 2017-05-13 02:28
fluffyDeathbringer
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With the possibility of "same idea, new flavour" too if the redesigner feels like it?

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Sat, 2017-05-13 02:32
ZephyrPhantom
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I suppose so, yeah


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Sat, 2017-05-13 12:32
Mocandragon5
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I'll put an additional vote in for one of the Urza sets as well as Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, so I have three votes in.

Sat, 2017-05-13 15:17
jacqui-pup
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Urza imo

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Sat, 2017-05-13 18:30
digiman619
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I can change my vote to Urza if that helps.

Sat, 2017-05-13 18:33
Mocandragon5
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Seems like Urza block has most votes then, but I guess we need to specify which?

Sat, 2017-05-13 18:41
digiman619
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I'm thinking Saga. A lot of interesting cycles in that one.

Sat, 2017-05-13 18:55
Mocandragon5
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Well, I prefer Urza's Legacy, but Urza's Vintage is interesting. I just dislike Urza's Modern. (Jokes!)

In all honesty, I have no preference.

Sun, 2017-05-14 05:52
fluffyDeathbringer
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I guess we're doing Urza! I also have no preference. I rolled Urza's Destiny at random, anyone object to doing that?

Also, what kind of method should the actual reversing use? The options I can think of are

- Flip rares/commons
- Move commons/uncommons/rares to the right (making rares commons)
- Above, but to the left
- Don't change rarities at all, just redesign what you get

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Sun, 2017-05-14 06:57
marioware2
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Another option to REALLY spice things up would be to RNG-assign each card a rarity based on the rarity distribution already in the set.

Sun, 2017-05-14 10:01
Neottolemo
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Nario's suggestion could be interesting but it feels like it'd be too complicated.

Urza's Destiny and Urza's Legacy are much smaller than Urza's Saga. My suggestion is: flip uncommons and rares for Urza's Destiny and Urza's Legacy since there's 44 uncommons and 44 rares in each of those sets, and move commons/uncommons/rares to the right if we pick Urza's Saga since it has the same number of cards at each rarity.

I guess whether we should do Urza's Destiny or Urza's Saga comes down to how many cards we feel like each of us can design for this edition of this project. I think I'm fine with either.

Sun, 2017-05-14 11:53
Vulgard
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Saga seems really nice, because of all the powerhouses in the set. There are more of them than in Destiny or Legacy, since the last two were smaller sets.

However, if there won't be enough people to do Saga, I think I'm fine with Destiny or Legacy.

Sun, 2017-05-14 12:10
fluffyDeathbringer
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Destiny/Legacy's 143 card amount can be divided across 13 people (11 each), and Saga's 350 can be divided across ten people (35 each) and 14 people (25 each).

I guess at this stage it'd be good to do an interest check... who'd be down for doing a Reverse? I'll mark y'all down so I can see what kind of division is tenable. We're on the track to do one of the Urza sets, but if you have a suggestion for something else, it's not too late yet.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Sun, 2017-05-14 13:00
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Sure.

Although, if we're doing a set w/ cycles, I don't see why we don't make this a straight-up community project and design cycles that way. (For instance, having five different designs for the circles of protection in Reverse Alpha was sort of bizarre)

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Sun, 2017-05-14 13:04
fluffyDeathbringer
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I dunno, I kinda like the idea of seeing what different designers do with different parts of a cycle and seeing it get disjointed like that.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Sun, 2017-05-14 13:45
Neottolemo
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I'm interested! Big smile

Also, yeah, the only reason I suggested we pick sets with lots of cycles is so they can get broken because seeing how different people take the same basic idea in different directions could be an insight in how we think differently as designers and that'd be really nice in my opinion A happy smile

Also, heads up: Saga actually has 330 cards because 20 of those 350 are basic lands, so the division should be slightly different! Big smile

Sun, 2017-05-14 13:58
Mocandragon5
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I'm still interested. Sign me up.

Sun, 2017-05-14 14:26
digiman619
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I wouldn't have voted if I wasn't interested.

Sun, 2017-05-14 14:34
fluffyDeathbringer
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Alright, then Saga can be cleanly divided across 11 people (30 each) and 15 people (22 each).

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Sun, 2017-05-14 14:37
aquaumisa
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I was in it for Alpha, and I'm not counting myself out right now. Consider me in too.

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Sun, 2017-05-14 14:42
Mocandragon5
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I'm counting 11 people who have posted in this thread.

Sun, 2017-05-14 14:44
fluffyDeathbringer
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It's entirely possible that some people were only pitching ideas without interest to try the thing out themselves, and aquaumisa's comment shows that taking everyone as unconditional auto-participants would be hasty, so I'd like confirmation once more now that we've got more things figured out.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Sun, 2017-05-14 14:49
digiman619
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I wouldn't have voted if I wasn't interested.

Sun, 2017-05-14 15:08
fluffyDeathbringer
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Noted. You were were already were already in the list.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Sun, 2017-05-14 16:10
Yoshi
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Consider me in. A happy smile

Working on an alt-color pie at the moment. Check me out in forum games!
If you need help with a community project, just message me and I'll be glad to help.

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Sun, 2017-05-14 16:33
Vunik
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I really like this idea, and tackling Urza's Saga for it. Count me in!

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Sun, 2017-05-14 17:14
Vulgard
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Sure, why not? Always looking forward to get better at designing cards.

Sun, 2017-05-14 17:26
Cajun
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I'm still in for Urza.

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Sun, 2017-05-14 17:29
Mocandragon5
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So, we're at 10 people total so far?

Sun, 2017-05-14 20:29
Daij_Djan
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Feel free to count me in as well. If the numbers don't add up, I'll take a backseat and wait if someone needs to drop out later on.

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Sun, 2017-05-14 21:29
ZephyrPhantom
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If there's room left I'd like to join.


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Mon, 2017-05-15 14:40
fluffyDeathbringer
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Okay, we've got 12 people so far: with those numbers, we can do both Legacy/Destiny and Saga with some users being cut out. I'll wait one more day for interested people, then I'll close signups.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Tue, 2017-05-16 20:48
Mocandragon5
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When are we starting this? Just wondering.

Tue, 2017-05-16 21:39
fluffyDeathbringer
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I'm closing off signups now, so... now.

Using my thread starter tyranny powers, I've decided the following things:
- We're doing Urza's Saga, due to it being easier to divide with the amount of participants.
- Since there's 12 people in including myself, I'll drop out and divide the cards among the other 11 so we can have a clean division. Everyone gets 30 cards.
- Due to Urza's Saga having 110 of each rarity (sans mythic, obviously), we don't need to worry about Sealed that much, so I've decided that the participants will shift the rarity of the cards they get one rarity downward. If you get a common, redesign it as a rare; uncommons become commons, and rares become uncommons.
- You can redesign your card either with the same flavour and new mechanics, or the same mechanics and new flavour. Also, as with Reverse Alpha, redesign your card in accordance with modern balance and colour pie sensibilities.
- Don't worry about cycle consistency.

Please consult the table below for the cards you'll be redesigning (by card number). I'd type out the cards but there's 330 so [REDACTED] that noise. Post your redesigned cards in the form of MSE set files in this thread once you're done, and I'll unite them all once they're in. Please put the original card's name in the card notes if you change it.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Tue, 2017-05-16 22:29
Cajun
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gogo excel magic added gatherer link too.

Spoiler:
gatherer link for easy numbers: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=checklist&sort=cn+&action=advanced&set=+[%22Urza%27s+Saga%22]
jac,33,52,56,68,73,76,77,90,95,103,109,118,124,131,146,151,152,181,186,194,209,219,221,254,271,273,281,287,289,300
Neo,10,23,45,47,59,62,87,98,108,120,138,145,149,153,164,197,204,205,206,208,215,217,228,236,238,272,274,283,299,315
Moc,16,19,21,25,27,36,42,49,53,88,104,141,143,144,155,161,165,169,170,202,211,226,240,243,262,267,303,311,313,320
dig,63,65,72,107,113,119,122,128,133,136,139,176,179,182,188,212,227,231,241,242,255,260,265,275,280,288,293,295,318,322
aqu,18,26,30,34,48,51,69,89,94,100,117,126,162,166,175,178,189,195,201,203,213,234,250,252,263,264,269,297,316,323
Yos,5,12,17,20,44,46,54,60,61,84,86,116,121,132,150,156,187,190,191,220,223,224,229,235,270,277,279,285,301,321
Vun,14,32,38,55,93,105,106,112,123,125,140,147,148,158,171,173,174,177,199,214,232,249,253,257,258,259,261,276,290,310
Vul,6,11,22,31,70,96,99,101,114,127,154,159,160,180,216,230,233,247,248,256,278,282,309,312,317,319,324,325,327,329
Caj,13,24,29,39,40,41,64,67,75,79,81,82,83,102,134,135,163,167,184,210,222,225,239,245,251,268,284,286,294,305
Dai,2,3,4,7,9,35,43,58,85,92,110,111,115,129,172,183,193,198,207,244,246,266,291,292,296,302,306,307,308,326
Zep,1,8,15,28,37,50,57,66,71,74,78,80,91,97,130,137,142,157,168,185,192,196,200,218,237,298,304,314,328,330

oh fluffy got the ninja. Well this is in order and copiable if you want.

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Tue, 2017-05-16 23:47
Mocandragon5
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My list (sans rarities)

Spoiler:
Healing Salve
Intrepid Hero
Monk Realist
Opal Gargoyle
Pacifism
Rune of Protection: Black
Sanctum Custodian
Serra's Liturgy
Soul Sculptor
Peregrine Drake
Tolarian Winds
Mana Leech
Oppression
Order of Yawgmoth
Sanguine Guard
Tainted Aether
Vebuild
Witch Engine
Yawgmoth's Edict
Lightning Dragon
Scald
Viashino Weaponsmith
Carpet of Flowers
Citanul Centaurs
Hidden Herd
Lull
Mobile Fort
Thran Turbine
Urza's Armor
Drifting Meadow

Edit: I have finished my first draft of the 30 cards. My new rarity distribution is 11 Uncommons, 9 Commons and 10 Rares.