Community Set Concept - Radurdum (I'm done with this)

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Mon, 2016-11-28 10:38
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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I really should've waited until Mious is published, but I'm just too anxious to get it out there.

Hey y'all, it's fluffyDeathbringer. You might know me from all the nitpicky syntax comments I leave on people's set spoilers, but hopefully you know me more from Mious, a community set project I started and semi-directed (which is also nearing publication, so look forward to it!). I've got another plane concept brewing, and this is me pitching what I've thought of so far to see if people are interested in developing it into a whole thing. If not, hey, no hard feelings. Sometimes things fall through, and that's just what it's like.

If y'all manage to get invested, though, here's how I plan on getting this done: first, we hammer the flavour and lore of the plane into something solid while simultaneously establishing a mechanical base for the set. Once that's done and we have a set skeleton, I will be posting card design prompts on a weekly basis. These will go through the card slots by rarity and colour, from white commons to blue commons to colourless rares to mythics. I'll be helping with card design and initial development if needed, but since my talent for actual overarching set design is nonexistent, I'll mostly be posting prompts and working on flavour like I did in Mious.

Anyway, here's what I've got to begin with. Nothing's set in stone yet.

Spoiler:

RADURDUM
Growing Pain

Radurdum is a world slowly and steadily edging towards apocalypse, but not from scarcity or decay; rather, it is overabundance that rips it apart at the seams. Due to a mysterious event, Radurdum's natural reserves of the five colours of mana are becoming more bloated and intense by the day, warping the landscape, the people and even the laws of nature. At this rate, the world as its people know it will end...

The ravages of mana cancer have split Radurdum into five regions, each twistedly amplified in its own way: a vast flatland bombarded by the rays of a never-setting sun, a series of islets and towers covered in perpetual rain and flooded by stormy sea, an all-encompassing and always-rising swamp accented by eternal nighttime, a punishingly hot range of volcanic mountains and a forest hyper-dense with both flora and fauna. The inhabitants of each region have been likewise corrupted both in physique and psychology, becoming grotesque exaggerations of the five colours.

Radurdum's native mana is overflowing, seeping out of every part of the world. This intense power that permeates all of Radurdum makes magical feats of a massive scale far easier than on other planes, but visiting planeswalkers will find that such gargantuan power is hard to control.

A handful of survivors from all five regions have banded together to try to prevent or at least ameliorate the worrisome course of Radurdum's future. Although their efforts so far have been stymied by their ignorance, maybe one day, possibly with outside help, they can live in a world more nurturing...

How will you face the end of the world?

Mechanically, here are some preliminary ideas I have:

- Mutant tribal.
- Monocolour matters.
- Overload in all five colours.
- High mana costs, high mana production.
- +1/+1 counters as opposed to -1/-1 counters. (+1/+1 counters matter?)


Updates
UPDATE (19.1.2017) Current mechanics list:

- Overload <cost> (You may cast this spell for its overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "target" with "each.")
- Twobrid mana
- Saturate (Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay 2 mana symbol. If you do, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)
- Destabilize (To destabilize, return an untapped land you control to its owner's hand. If you do, add Colorless mana symbolColorless mana symbol to your mana pool.)
- Abundance -- If you control a permanent with converted mana cost 5 or greater...
- Rupture N (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it. If you do, sacrifice it at the beginning of your next upkeep unless you pay N.)

UPDATE (17.2.2017)

- Radurdum will have at least one multicoloured planeswalker.
- The planeswalker roster will include at least Arto, Kura and Ardy.
- The storytelling style will follow several plot threads.
- Internal philosophical divides within monocolours will be a feature in the worldbuilding of Radurdum.

UPDATE (17.2.2017)

Landscape worldbuilding (by thehuw):

White has experienced the subtlest changes, but they're no less dramatic overall: constant hot winds have drastically accelerated the process of erosion on the plains, turning rolling hills and gentle impressions into an increasingly homogenous flat plane broken up only by settlements. This has had profound effects on the practice of warfare, and, ironically, made free travel and communication a good deal harder, as the relentless siroccos swallow up old roads.

Blue gets rain. Non-stop, torrential rain. The coastal valley network that once made up this region has turned into a kudzu of shallow, fast-flowing rivers that have both revitalized travel and made it extremely dangerous. Certain communities have become isolated by particularly violent currents, and steeds that can fly through the constant downpour and high winds are extremely valuable.

Black has become an even less hospitable place than before. The ground seems to be softening everywhere, turning previously habitable land into wet, mushy sludge. Firm ground is now at a premium for the fortresses of warlords, and their constant squabbles tend to devolve into drawn-out slugfests as troop movement slows to a crawl and more battles are lost to contaminated supplies and mosquito-borne diseases than to enemy armies.

Red sees massively increased tectonic activity, leading to near-constant earthquakes that make permanent settlement in the region more or less impossible and have forced most of the inhabitants into a nomadic lifestyle. Particularly violent rumblings emanate from Mt. (name), a massive extinct volcano which seems to be starting to stir, and the temperature has become unbearably high in certain spots.

Green is probably the most obvious: nature goes haywire. Ironically, a lot of the plant life at ground level has died off as the overactive trees form an impenetrable canopy that chokes off the forest floor. Just as well, really - the ground is no longer safe, now infested with huge, overgrown wildlife that has forced smaller, weaker creatures (including most humanoids) up into the trees.

UPDATE (10.3.2017)

Colour philosophy internal split worldbuilding (by thehuw):

  • Authoritarian white believes it can master the overgrowth, while collectivist white aims to band together to defeat it.
  • Repository blue values the overgrowth as a potent power source for the Repository, while rogue blue sees curbing the overgrowth a chance to rob the other faction of its power and force people to rely solely on their own wits.
  • Ambitious black generally wants to bend the overgrowth to its own ends, whereas pragmatic black understands that it's less likely to get any of what it wants if the world is fried, and thus works against the overgrowth.
  • Negativist red believes that letting the overgrowth exist will allow people to harness its power and actualize their personal goals, gaining total freedom from the laws of reality and human achievement. Positivist red sees it as a dangerous, destructive adversary that infringes on people's freedom just by existing.
  • Naturalist green is the most supportive faction of the overgrowth, believing that it represents the plane of Radurdum taking back what rightfully belongs to it. Preservationist green, by contrast, is the faction most in opposition; it's horrified by the possibility of the Radurdum it knows being lost.

UPDATE (19.4.2017)

Radurdum archetypes (by HerziQuerzi)

White mana symbol: 'Enters the battlefield' abuse.

Blue mana symbol: Big finisher creatures and Abundance.

  • .-White mana symbol: Provides early game support (that will likely also have Abundance, to help the deck turn the corner when it hits 5 mana). Creature focus.
  • .-Black mana symbol: Provides early game kill spells. Control focus.

Black mana symbol: Aggro with cheap mana sinks; uses the Shade (Black mana symbol: +1/+1) effect.

  • .-Blue mana symbol: Provides +1/-1 effects.
  • .-Red mana symbol: Provides +1/+0 effects.

Red mana symbol: Abundance in tandem with aggressive five drops, ramps into them via Destabilize.

  • .-Black mana symbol: Provides a handful of larger creatures; perhaps a Crypt Ghast variant. Focuses on retaining a small handful of big creatures.
  • .-Green mana symbol: Provides additional ramp and large creatures. Focuses on slamming a ton of big creatures.

Green mana symbol: +1/+1 counters matter. Uses Saturate and ramp.

  • .-Red mana symbol: Provides Rupture. More midgame aggressiveness.
  • .-White mana symbol: Provides additional Saturate. More beefy stalling into late game.

UPDATE (7.5.2017): thehuw's suggested cycles

  • Common: A cycle of creatures which are vanilla except for saturate, with typical stats for their color.
  • Common: A cycle of mostly-vanilla creatures that get a static boost and a keyword if you have abundance.
  • Common: A cycle of monocolored mana rocks. (This would replace the five slots Herzi's allocated for common nonbasic land, probably.)
  • Uncommon: A cycle of creatures with saturate that can remove counters for effect.
  • Uncommon: A cycle of twobrid spells that get better if you cast them for their maximum cost.
  • Uncommon: Arcuns. A ten-card cycle. Since we've got no gold cards below rare, these will probably either be monocolored with off-color abilities or just straight-up monocolored.
  • Rare: Can't go wrong with a legendary creature cycle.
  • Rare: A loose cycle of ten "arcrares" representing the apex of their respective draft archetypes - maybe this is what we use our gold slots for.
  • Rare: A cycle of "apocalypse" spells that represent the absolute conclusion of each color's mana overgrowth. These would be big, sweeping effects with high color density in their costs, but they'd probably be quite a loose cycle. Maybe they all have overload?

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Mon, 2016-11-28 13:14
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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This sure sound like an interesting idea - even though I'm not really sure how good it'd play in the end. Limited could feel similar to RoE, I guess.

Fun fact: When I started reading your world's introduction, I thought of this as a potential Gamma candidate - a world where death suddenly vanishes and life starts overflowing Winking smiley

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Mon, 2016-11-28 13:23
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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Well, like I said, nothing's set in stone yet. As long as the main core of the world's flavour comes out, any mechanics are fine. (And the flavour's open to being altered too. This is a potential community project, after all.)

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Mon, 2016-11-28 13:32
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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I might dig this. Would every color get ramp? That's something mechanically interesting imo

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Mon, 2016-11-28 14:03
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

If you want a ramp theme perhaps you could look into returning Refresh from Anuttymous's Keltz, perhaps? Maybe even unkeyworded on a cycle or something.

Also, Yoshi's keyword Martyrdom fits well with monocolour matters and with the whole apocalypse theme.

Martyrdom (Each <mana symbol> in the mana costs of cards in your graveyard counts towards your martyrdom to <colour>.)

Mon, 2016-11-28 14:50
Ziolang
Ziolang's picture

Pre-apocalypse Fyles? I can dig it. When I'm on my computer I'll try to toss some ideas this way


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Mon, 2016-11-28 14:51
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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oh geez did I accidentally plagiarize Fyles

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Mon, 2016-11-28 15:03
Ziolang
Ziolang's picture

Not really. The only real relation is that Fyles is mutant-centric. Although it could be assumed that this is the kind of catastrophe that created Fyles in the first place. I dunno, I hadn't actually developed what caused Fyles to be the way it is.


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Mon, 2016-11-28 16:10
thehuw
thehuw's picture

Throwing a few of my own ideas into the ring, use or discard at your leisure:

  • If we don't want every color to get true ramp, one option would be to include things like mana rocks at common to emphasize the big mana aspect. (That said, giving every color ramp with respect to its own land type could be interesting, if perhaps a bit too bendy for a "normal" set.)
  • With regard to encouraging monocolor play without making Limited too draconian - twobrid mana? Perhaps certain spells have extra cherries if they're cast for the minimum cost (say, a A 2/U hybrid mana symbol.A 2/U hybrid mana symbol.A 2/U hybrid mana symbol. spell for Blue mana symbolBlue mana symbolBlue mana symbol) - or maybe for the maximum cost, again to reward big-mana plays (A 2/U hybrid mana symbol.A 2/U hybrid mana symbol.A 2/U hybrid mana symbol. cast for 6 mana symbol). Maybe a mixture of both!
  • Some kind of mechanic to represent people trying to stave off the oversaturation would be interesting - perhaps something that "damps" your mana temporarily in exchange for control over some other aspect of the game. Off the top of my head, would the moonfolk mechanic from Kamigawa (bouncing your own lands for effect) be too sluggish and grindy here?
  • Certain permanents should definitely grow and get stronger over time as the intensified mana warps and transforms them, and some kind of threshold mechanic to represent this would be interesting (maybe based on lands or colored permanents you control) - bonus points if the effect you get on hitting the threshold is often a double-edged sword.
  • On a creative note... stop me if this is vanity talking, but I actually think Arto Schalfen, my old BB character, would be a pretty interesting planeswalker to introduce to this setting. He's extremely mono-blue, and obsessed with mental self-perfection, so the reductionist blue society on Radurdum would almost certainly appeal to him, at least until he realizes the dangers of their excess.

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Set Huwb
They/them pronouns, please.
Praise Vectron.

Mon, 2016-11-28 16:20
Neottolemo
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thehuw wrote:
Certain permanents should definitely grow and get stronger over time as the intensified mana warps and transforms them, and some kind of threshold mechanic to represent this would be interesting (maybe based on lands or colored permanents you control) - bonus points if the effect you get on hitting the threshold is often a double-edged sword.

Combining this with your idea for an art direction made me think of this

Saturation (At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control more permanents that share a colour with this creature than there are +1/+1 counters on this creature, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)

Mon, 2016-11-28 16:25
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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For reference, Neottolemo refers to a suggestion huw made in the Skype chat: that the art's saturation should be turned up slightly.

And also, about that. Mious' art direction ended up being pretty homogenous in style due to the art mostly being found by HerziQuerzi (thank you for that, genuinely), who has his own standards when it comes to card art. I personally would want Radurdum to have a more diverse art direction, allowing for different styles to coexist like one would find in a set by thehuw or jacqui-pup. If nothing else, it would make finding art quicker and easier.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Mon, 2016-11-28 16:31
Robot_Face
Robot_Face's picture

What about Undying as a keyword? The death trigger sort of fits in with the apocalypse setting, but it uses +1/+1 counters for a feeling of growth and/or abundance.

I like to think about the color pie. I am primarily Blue, secondarily Red, and tertiarily Green.
Come help me make Purple! Alternate purple mana symbol

Mon, 2016-11-28 16:39
Sylphiod
Sylphiod's picture

suggestion for some kind of threshold like huw suggested, Managrowth N - As long as/If (on instant and sorcery) you have N mana in your mana pool. Effect
For example. to make it more color matters, it good be mono color

Seeping Power Green mana symbol
Instant Common
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Managrowth 3 - If you have 3 or more mana in your mana pool. Put two +1/+1 counters on that creature instead.

Anyways I do have a mono color walker, that I think would fit, Kura Hearth, she is a mutant herself, having two extra arms (for six arms) and a tentacle, she can't cast spells persay, but is amazing with healing magic and surgery.), I don't have artwork for her currently, but I can get some.

Spoiler:

This is what her race normally looks like.

Mon, 2016-11-28 16:58
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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[18:57:37] My Huwbris Will Be My Downfall: I like the idea of there being some tribalism within each monocolor about which aspect of the color they see as the One True Value

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Mon, 2016-11-28 17:29
thehuw
thehuw's picture

Some ideas along those lines:

White: peace vs. order (which should take priority?)
Blue: knowledge vs. detachment (does research and study invest us too heavily in something we're trying to transcend?)
Black: pragmatism vs. ambition (is power for power's sake worth it?)
Red: freedom vs. lawlessness (sort of like the difference between positive and negative freedom, if anyone knows pol-phil. To summarize as best I can: negative freedom (lawlessness) is not being tied to a tree, and positive freedom (freedom) is nobody being allowed to tie you to a tree)
Green: "let nature take its course" vs. "maintain the balance of nature" (what do we do if one part of the ecosystem gets too strong - cut it back to keep balance or let it do what it's destined to?)

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Set Huwb
They/them pronouns, please.
Praise Vectron.

Mon, 2016-11-28 18:00
Sylphiod
Sylphiod's picture

White: Control vs, Harmony (The more Blue side of White verus the more green side of White
Blue: Ethics Vs Progress ( White side of blue vs black side of blue.)
Black: same as Huw Pragmatism Vs. Ambition (Blue side Versus Red side)
Red: Power Vs Freedom (Black side vs Green side)
Green: Nature Vs Nurture (Similar to Huw's Red side vs White side.)

I don't mean multi-color hear
I mean the aspects of that each color share with other colors.

Anyways some ideas of my own:
Each color getting there own version of of each type mana production, Like Cost reduction, mana dorks, land search, mana ramp, each color gets their own take on each of these.
Since the set is about mutants and mana getting out of control, I suggest we include colorbleeding, so the colors getting cards that more common in other colors, but still possible in their own. Since the mana is rampant in it's own type it gathers the people would try to expand what that color could do by itself.

Mon, 2016-11-28 18:24
Yoshi
Community Award
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Monstrosity, cascade and multikicker all seem like very good mechanics here IMO.

Working on an alt-color pie at the moment. Check me out in forum games!
If you need help with a community project, just message me and I'll be glad to help.

I stand with the specimen.

Mon, 2016-11-28 18:31
thehuw
thehuw's picture

-1 to multikicker - we already have overload as a tentative inclusion, which is a kicker-esque mechanic, and I think it'd be best not to have more than one of those. I'm a little iffy on monstrosity for the same reason.

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Set Huwb
They/them pronouns, please.
Praise Vectron.

Mon, 2016-11-28 18:47
Neottolemo
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I agree with thehuw on the mechanics.

Mon, 2016-11-28 21:52
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Mechanic that might be worth doing here if you're looking for something moonfolk-y but not grindy:

Moon Gilder 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol
Creature - Moonfolk Druid Common
Tap symbol: Exhaust. (Return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you do, add Colorless mana symbolColorless mana symbol to your mana pool.)
2/1

Could show up in Green mana symbol, Blue mana symbol, and Red mana symbol, and probably colorless as well.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Mon, 2016-11-28 21:55
Yoshi
Community Award
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Welp, I skimmed over that. To create decision making in terms of whether or not to cast large spells or to cast multiple small spells with the hypothetical large amounts of mana you get. Overload generally pushes you towards using large spells, so this might push things into many small spells instead of one large spell:

Manasurge - Whenever you cast a spell, if it's your second spell this turn, <effect>

Paragon of Rage 3 mana symbolRed mana symbol
Creature - Ogre Common
Manasurge - Whenever you cast a spell, if it's your second spell this turn, CARDNAME gets +2/-2 and gains trample until end of turn.
3/4

Working on an alt-color pie at the moment. Check me out in forum games!
If you need help with a community project, just message me and I'll be glad to help.

I stand with the specimen.

Mon, 2016-11-28 22:00
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Could Overcharge from IOTE work here?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Mon, 2016-11-28 22:06
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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I could also imagine some sort of Unleash-like mechanic allowing you to make your creatures enter the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter (or maybe even add a number to this for higher rarities) while punishing you for doing this somehow. Named Overflow or similar, maybe?

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Mon, 2016-11-28 22:37
Guitarweeps
Head Administrator
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I am excited to see Mious. I intentionally stayed out just to see everything when revealed and look forward to it. I would like to be involved with this. It'll be nice to be involved in a project with no responsibilities lol.

Check out my updated set hub.

Tue, 2016-11-29 02:10
Horizons
Community Award
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Big mana world seems cool A happy smile I'm not much for top-down design but im alright at hammering out draft archetypes. I'll just kind of explore how each color relates to its mana and goes completely bonkers with it left unchecked.

Black: I think black can pay life or sacrifice creatures/lands for mana. Can also perhaps feed on other players mana along with the Blue mana symbol ability (perhaps keyword it as Sap or something)

Blue: Most blue ramp I know of consists of things like High Tide. I think playing lands off the top like Oracle of Mul Daya or revealing lands from the hand to ramp or reduce costs of spells could be interesting (dangerous but can be properly executed). Could also drain other players mana somehow. Could see UG landbounce + extra land archetype similar to Moonfolk & their patron.

Green: Mana ramp is pretty well established here and I don't think its the worst thing to stick with it.

Red: Red can get temporary mana out the wazoo but I think also maybe some Harrow effects are acceptable. I can see Scapeshift/Land Sacrifice being a fun Green mana symbolRed mana symbol archetype here. Omnath kind of embodies the mechanical feel of your plane I think.

White: white mana can be derived from equality so lots of land tax kind of effects. Also Convoke + tokens does exist.

Keywords

Action Keyword: Sap 1 (you may tap target land for mana. Then remove all mana from that player's mana pool and add it to yours)

Notes: Needs refining because it is of limited ability as it just incentivizes players to tap put all their mana. Could be combined with effects that demand opponents to pay a tax though like Mana Leak.

Keyword: Imprint Variant (As you cast this spell, you may exile a card from your hand to reduce the casting cost of that spell by the exiled card's converted mana cost.)

Notes: Seems pretty broken but its kind of like Delve in that its a powerful effect tht can be balanced by caution in execution. Also the effect isnt set in stone i was just thinking of a decent way to give U mana ramp aside from High Tide.

Returning Keyword: Affinity for X (possibly for basic land types because ?monocolored might be a theme.

Keyword: Expand (exile a land in your hand attached to a land you control. Whenever that land is tapped for mana, it adds an additional 1 mana symbol to your mana pool for each land exiled onto it). U could get some untapling permanent stuff to go with a mechanic like this.

Reverse Entropy 3 mana symbolBlue mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Enchantment Rare
At the end of each step and phase, remove all mana from each player's mana pool and add it to yours at the beginning of your next precombat main phase.
At the beginning of each player's end step, that player taps all untapped lands they control for mana.

Tue, 2016-11-29 05:45
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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Okay so here's my thoughts on the brainstorming y'all have posted. Bear in mind that they shouldn't be thought of as the word of God or anything. (Thank you so much for it, by the way: it's an overwhelming honour to get so much attention and buzz.)

- Every colour getting ramp: Could work. We could either have all colours do ramp their own way like Horizons suggested (really iffy on convoke+tokens though) or reprint profit but reflavoured for the set. We could call it coalesce? Also receptive to idea of lots of mana dorks/rocks at common.
- Refresh: Iffy on this tbh.
- Martyrdrom: Could work. Renamed?
- Staving off oversaturation: I have in my head that the people doing it are a small faction and so it wouldn't really become a world mechanic? Maybe in a second set. But that's just me.
- Twobrid: Cool. I'd prefer giving rewards for max cast (or giving drawbacks on min cast, to bring out the "hard to control" aspect?)
- Permanents growing stronger: how about a mechanic that makes a thing grow until a certain point, then forces sac?
- Arto and Kura: Sure. I'd actually like there to be a multicolour walker too, for a kind of "stranger in a strange land" feel? Also, do we want story for Arto and Kura or do we want like a "Tamiyo in Innistrad" feel for the PWs?
- Undying & Managrowth: Eh, not enthused personally.
- Split extremisms within factions: Not sure how these would be conveyed, and we'd have to work on splitting each monocolour into representing both sides of each divide in addition to any other possible conflicts and expositions.
- Colourbleeding: No.
- Exhaust: Neat.
- Manasurge: Also neat.
- Unleash-like mechanic: Neatx3.
- Sap 1: Nah, feels like an unfun mechanic.

Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

Tue, 2016-11-29 09:36
thehuw
thehuw's picture

I'd be okay with having Arto as someone who's just kinda there while the bulk of the story (whatever it may be) happens, maybe with a card or two in blue to represent him and a handful of flavor texts to his name but no more than that. I don't see him scrabbling to save any worlds anytime soon, especially if it'd mean fighting back against the exact thing he's trying to exploit. So, yeah, Tamiyo in (pre-Eldrazi) Innistrad.

Would like to add my +1 to exhaust, which could double up as sorely-needed extra mana for blue, and to manasurge, especially in the way Yoshi's example card uses it where it bestows a drawback too. I really like the idea of some/most of this set's mechanics being something of a mixed blessing rather than pure upside.

The "grow until sacrifice" concept is neat but I'm not sure how it could be elegantly conveyed mechanically. My first idea was something like backwards vanishing with +1/+1 counters - put a counter on the creature at the start of each turn until it hits a certain threshold - but, if we're playing up a +1/+1 counters matter subtheme (which I'd like to, they're always pretty fun), there's perhaps a bit more negative synergy there than I'm comfortable with. Not sure.

Red mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol
Set Huwb
They/them pronouns, please.
Praise Vectron.

Tue, 2016-11-29 12:13
Ziolang
Ziolang's picture

Some thoughts on an overflow style mechanic.

Basic concept: Saturation (Whenever you cast a spell, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature. At the beginning of your [upkeep/end step], sacrifice it if it has more +1/+1 counters than its converted mana cost.)

That's just the base idea I'm proposing. It could trigger off spells that share a color with it, whenever it attacks or what have you. The sac trigger could check for different conditions like base power and it could trigger off at a different time. Just some food for thought.

Or alternative idea, a kind of Echo Unleash fusion.

Overflow # (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with # +1/+1 counters. If you do, sacrifice it at the beginning of your next upkeep unless you pay #.


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Tue, 2016-11-29 22:21
Robot_Face
Robot_Face's picture

I think that if there's a monocolor theme, no two colors should share a keyword. Everything should be in one color or all five.
I also don't think there should be any multicolor cards outside of maybe a few mythic planeswalkers/legendary creatures.

I like to think about the color pie. I am primarily Blue, secondarily Red, and tertiarily Green.
Come help me make Purple! Alternate purple mana symbol

Tue, 2016-11-29 22:30
thehuw
thehuw's picture

I agree that multicolored cards should be scarce - perhaps the required color-linking could be done using monocolored cards with off-color activated abilities.

Limiting each keyword to either one color or all of them strikes me as a bad idea, as it puts very severe constraints on what we can do with our mechanics; they either have to be very general or very specific. I like the idea of a lot of our mechanics being universal across all colors, but arbitrarily saying that there can't be some mechanics that only appear in 2-4 colors doesn't seem like the best plan.

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Tue, 2016-11-29 22:40
Robot_Face
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What I meant was that it would be weird having a keyword exist in two colors if those colors are never going to be played together anyways. Monocolor matters probably means there won't be two-color archetypes. I know that a mechanic isn't the same thing as an archetype (energy counters from Kaladesh are an example of a single mechanic with a couple different archetypes), but they most often tend to correspond.

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Tue, 2016-11-29 22:42
jacqui-pup
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Why do we need any multicolor cards at all? (Don't say "because arcuns," we can make a cool set without arcuns.) And yes, mono-color sets do have two-color archetypes

I do like the idea of a Taurean Mauler mechanic, though you'd need to limit it to your spells for both complexity and power level reasons if you keyworded it.

Ursine Mauler 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol
Creature - Bear Common
Overflow (Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay 2 mana symbol. If you do, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)
2/2

Neat mana sink mechanic too.

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Tue, 2016-11-29 22:46
thehuw
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@Robot_Face: We do kinda need two-color archetypes for Limited to work properly. Ever tried to draft monocolor? Doesn't usually end well, even in a set like Theros where monocolored strategies are encouraged.

@jacqui: I think I like overflow (be careful, though, your extort-like mechanic obsession is showing), but it'd probably need renaming if it were to coexist with overload.

As for multicolored cards, I want to leave the possibility open of an odd two-color planeswalker or something, but honestly I'd be okay if that was the only gold card in the set. There was briefly talk of Gulaisha being in this set iirc, for instance, and she's White mana symbolBlack mana symbol.

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Tue, 2016-11-29 22:52
Robot_Face
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The only reason to have a multicolor card would be if a named character needed it for flavor reasons. That's why I suggested limiting it to mythic rare.

Encouraging people to play single-color decks but still having two-color archetypes just seems counter-intuitive. Unless we've decided not to do that, in which case I missed that and I apologize.

Edit: I guess it would be needed in a draft. Also, I agree with theHuw. Sorry, you posted 3 seconds before I did.

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Come help me make Purple! Alternate purple mana symbol

Tue, 2016-11-29 22:52
thehuw
thehuw's picture

Playing monocolored decks is just not possible in Limited unless you have amazing luck. I'm guessing the ideal Limited deck in this format would be two-colored, but with one main color and a splash rather than two used roughly evenly - but, even if that's the case, it makes sense for each pair to have some semblance of a strategy to follow.

For Constructed, obviously we can push some monocolored strategies, but we can't expect them to carry us for Draft and Sealed as well.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 02:50
Sylphiod
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@Thehuw playing mono colour isn't about luck it's about skill. It's very easy to draft mono colour if you know the set or your play group. I play mono colour in kaladesh and I only draft 1-4 artifacts. You only need 22 on colour cards to make a playable deck.
That being said I don't think we need to have multicolour cards. Besides the mythic level. And with 2/C hybrids and mana rocks it would certainly make multicolour possible.

Wed, 2016-11-30 03:09
Guitarweeps
Head Administrator
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It is very hard to design a set that can be mono colored for sealed unless you have a higher number of artifacts or hybrids. Draft would still be hard. Knowing the set doesn't really help if you don't get passed your colors. Knowing your play group doesn't either as you should be able to go to big events and play the set (obviously only in theory).

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Wed, 2016-11-30 04:23
Sylphiod
Sylphiod's picture

To go mono colour, you want there to not be a surplus of your colour. In an artifact set to go mono colour you don't take artifacts unless you really need it. In the firsthand second pack You should take a bad card of the colour you want or a card of the colour you don't plan on playing. You should end up with 8-10 cards you colour, about 6-8 useable cards, the second pack you'll probably do up with at least 9 cards your colour, if you didn't it means you didn't choke out the colour well enough or someone opened a good rare. If you don't have at least 16 cards of your colour, give up going mono colour, then you likely have enough cards in an additional colour that you could start with a second colour on the third pact. So you'll either end up with a great mono colour deck or a decent dual colour deck. Don't be afraid to splash a colour as well, if you have a good card in another colour you can risk two basic lands to run it.
This is how I build mono colour decks when I go to bigger tourneys and away from my playgroup.

But for sealed even a set build to favour mono colours can still be played quite well multi coloured. And with 6 packs the only reason most people don't play monocolour isn't because they can't it is because they see multicolour as better.

Wed, 2016-11-30 11:38
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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Me and huw were talking about this for a mechanical idea.

Partition (You may pay X mana symbol to exile this card from your hand with X build counters on it. You may cast it from exile, and it costs X mana symbol less to cast.)
If you cast ~ from your hand, (some bonus)

also

[13:35:28] My Huwbris Will Be My Downfall: In particular I'm interested in exploring the idea of "evil green"
[13:35:47] bergentrucking: oh yeah
[13:36:21] bergentrucking: evil green as wanting to preserve the [REDACTED]ed up world cancer, because they think it's fated and natural?
[13:36:59] My Huwbris Will Be My Downfall: And letting increasingly twisted and powerful beings surge forth and fuck everyone else over because something something social Darwinism

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Wed, 2016-11-30 12:02
thehuw
thehuw's picture

My pick of the mechanics suggested on this thread so far, subject to discussion, of course:

  • Overload (You may cast this spell for its overload cost. If you do, replace all instances of "target" with "each.) Designed by WotC, suggested by Fluffy. All colors. This is just a perfect fit flavorwise, and has a lot of untapped design space considering that it was bound to two colors in its original incarnation. If I had to choose one kicker-like mechanic for the set, it'd be this one.
  • Twobrid mana (A 2/W hybrid mana symbol. may be paid with any two mana or with White mana symbol, and is treated as 2 mana symbol when calculating converted mana costs.) Designed by WotC, suggested by me. All colors. I'd almost be willing to consider this a new mechanic considering how limited its presence was in its original appearance - only six cards, none of them common. I'm down with Fluffy's suggestion of encouraging you to cast it for the maximum, allowing these cards to fill a triple purpose of encouraging monocolor, rewarding big-mana plays, and easing up mana hardness for Limited purposes.
  • Unfettered (Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay 2 mana symbol. If you do, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.) Designed and suggested by Jacqui, as overflow. (I've taken the liberty of renaming it as otherwise it's rather close to overload.) Primary Green mana symbolWhite mana symbol, secondary everything else. Just as overload is a great way of representing overabundance on spells, this does the same for creatures. It's a good mana sink for the late game, too, and relatively simple.
  • Exhaust (To exhaust, return an untapped land you control to its owner's hand. If you do, add Colorless mana symbolColorless mana symbol to your mana pool.) Designed and suggested by Jacqui. (I added the "untapped" for power level reasons. A version which allowed you to return any land but only added Colorless mana symbol would be functionally very similar, but this reads as a bit more exciting.) Primary Blue mana symbolRed mana symbolGreen mana symbol and colorless. Sorry for a second Jacqui mechanic, but this is another clean, versatile mechanic with a lot of good design space. This is a great way for colors other than red to get quick bursts of mana (blue, red, green and colorless could probably all get this), and a good use for extra lands in the late game. I could even see a few cards that want you to discard lands to encourage you to use this - maybe that's a potential draft archetype.
  • Some kind of threshold mechanic. Ideally something that could be primary in Black mana symbol and one or two other colors. This would be an ability word in the vein of threshold, delirium and metalcraft that cares about you hitting some important mark to "turn on" an ability. Off the top of my head, possibly an ability that cares about having some number of on-color basics in your graveyard? (So a black one would turn on from Swamps in your yard, a blue one would activate from Islands, and so on.) Two seems like a good number.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 14:45
Ziolang
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I second all of the above mechanics as such:

-Overload: The mana ramp subtheme helps to access overload costs quickly and synergizes very well with Exhaust.

-Twobrid Mana: Also has good synergy with Exhaust and mana ramp, and having benefits for paying its full converted mana cost would help limited be more willing to play these out of their color as well as provide good design space.

-Overflow/Unfettered: I hate unfettered as a name, but that's just personal opinion. The ability is perfect. With a ramp-heavy set, it definitely provides a much needed mana sink for mid to late games, especially for limited. I strongly encourage a verb name, though, so you can use it for abilities easier. Such as "Whenever ~ overflows/unfetters, effect."

-Exhaust: Brilliant simplicity. Fulfills the ramp subtheme quite nicely without putting the player at an instant advantage with the ramp.

-Threshold mechanic: Maybe. If we still wanted a +1/+1 counter subtheme, I could recommend Apex from Fyles. Which is:
Apex - As long as there are five or more +1/+1 counters among creatures you control, [effect].
I had the threshold count at five in Fyles due to it being incredibly counter heavy, so if y'all wanna use it you could easily shift it to four or even three.


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Wed, 2016-11-30 14:51
Yoshi
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Limited looks very slow right now, though that may just be me.

I'd replace Overflow with Manasurge, personally (though that's up for discussion).

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Wed, 2016-11-30 14:58
thehuw
thehuw's picture

Very much not 100% sold on the name of unfettered / overflow / whatever, so we can work on that.

Apex could be a good fit if we're going with +1/+1 counters matter, though it leaves black with no mechanics it's primary in and gives us two different keywords referring to +1/+1 counters.

I can see manasurge maybe taking the place of overflow, but my concern is that almost every set has at least one mechanic that just goes on creatures and one that just goes on spells. We have the latter already in overload, but, with manasurge in place, we wouldn't have an example of the former. I'm willing to entertain the idea, but I still favor overflow on the whole.

And this does indeed look like a slowish, battlecruisery format, but hopefully we can include a few powerful big-ticket cards to break stalemates.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 14:58
fluffyDeathbringer
Moderator
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If we go with Overflow, we could call it Saturate and have it say "Whenever ~ is saturated, (effect)" to fix both the old name's similarity to Overload and Ziolang's distaste for it.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 15:00
thehuw
thehuw's picture

+1 to saturate - flavorful and utilitarian name.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 15:05
Yoshi
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I mean manasurge can literally only go on permanents. Spells don't really track "whenever you cast your second spell each turn".

EDIT: Threshold suggestion

Abundance - If you control a permanent or with converted mana cost 5 or greater <effect>

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Wed, 2016-11-30 15:05
fluffyDeathbringer
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Actually, now that I think of it, exhaust doesn't make a lot of sense flavourwise - would you be able to exhaust the mana reserve of a landscape in a world defined by overly fruitful mana? It feels more like a mechanic one would find in a dwindling world that's falling to overharvesting of resources, or something.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 15:08
thehuw
thehuw's picture

@Yoshi: True, but it's usually good form to have at least one creature-exclusive mechanic in a large set, rather than one that's more generally exclusive to permanents (off the top of my head: a bunch of stuff in RTR/GTC, monstrosity and heroic in THS, outlast and prowess in KTK, ingest in BFZ, skulk in SOI, fabricate in KLD).

And, hey, if spells can have landfall...

That said, I'm wondering if we could substitute manasurge for the fifth, currently semi-undefined threshold mechanic. Apex is good but it's not as perfect a fit as the other four, and we do have room for a pseudo.

@Fluffy: I'd justify it as a land becoming so overabundant that it destabilizes and collapses - though that might warrant a name change.

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Wed, 2016-11-30 17:27
HerziQuerzi
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Potential name for Exhaust: Rupture

Phasing
This phases in or out before you untap during each of your untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.
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Wed, 2016-11-30 20:49
Horizons
Community Award
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Is exhaust really that good of a mechanic? I was thinking we'd need something like eldrazi spawn/scions.

Also y no love for affinity for basics?

Wed, 2016-11-30 22:25
Ziolang
Ziolang's picture

As the keyword, I've never liked affinity for anything...!


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