MSE Modern Judges' Lounge UPDATE ATOG

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Sat, 2016-01-23 21:51
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Would it be cool if we all worked on an updated version of the set?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-01-23 23:35
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Ok ok ok! so Lumehaven was a community set and one of the first ones that I worked on. Like most community sets it ended slowing at the end and Anuttymous and I tried to complete. I kinda like the set still but definitely not my finest work. It was probably designed ages before Theros was a concept. The enchantment creatures were mechanical on half and flavor in the other half (feel free to read up on it on the page). It is possible we return to Lumehaven as a community set and it would be much more polished and focused. I wouldn't mind editing it but that would be odd since it is already in our featured sets as is. After Theros came out I definately had a lot of ideas about changing cards but we can't really do that every time wotc puts out something executed better than us...

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2016-02-14 11:31
Nazsmith
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I considered reading everything here but I decided not to. My only question is that to confirm that it is only VEB that you can't play with and that the other three sets mentioned on page one are good to go.

I play Katawa Shoujo. And I use the Chatroom for MSE, so check up on me!

Sun, 2016-02-14 15:36
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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The five banned sets are Volaria, Repel the Darkness, Storm the Otherworld, Struggles of Iscathia, and Hour of Revolution.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2016-02-14 20:13
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

What jacqui-pup said. I do have a list of things that are different between the beta and Atog release but I won't get to it until tonight

Sun, 2016-02-14 22:46
Nazsmith
Nazsmith's picture

In format, MSE Modern, does it exclude the banned sets? It appears, just makin sure

I play Katawa Shoujo. And I use the Chatroom for MSE, so check up on me!

Sun, 2016-02-14 22:47
ThisisSakon
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If you select the MSE modern filter it removes all silver and gold bordered cards from the list. I think it makes a sound (???) if you try and play an illegal card.

Sun, 2016-02-14 23:52
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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If you select the MSE modern filter, it SHOULD remove sets that aren't legal, but it might not.

Mon, 2016-02-15 00:08
Nazsmith
Nazsmith's picture

Is forgemaster currently banned?

I play Katawa Shoujo. And I use the Chatroom for MSE, so check up on me!

Mon, 2016-02-15 00:37
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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No.

Though you can't get the best combo off it anymore now that Blade of Free Will costs 3 mana symbol, and I'm pretty sure it's getting a nerf when SoR gets added to the plugin.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Mon, 2016-02-15 00:39
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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Champions of Y'gra (COY) is also not banned. Hopefully Wind will be able to make them black bordered for the next update.

I like bears.

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:25
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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So, WoC has a cycle of cards with non-mana Flashback costs. Some of them are... concerning. To give you an idea of power level, the worst card in the cycle is a function reprint of Cabal Therapy.

1 mana symbolWhite mana symbol Advance of the Worthy. Flashback: Return a creature you control to its' owner's hand, grants creatures protection from the color of your choice until EOT. Basically fizzles all targeted removal. Blue mana symbolBlue mana symbol Dismissed Hopes. Flashback: Mill 3. Disperse. Basically fizzles all targeted non-removal-- Auras, giant growths, etc. And that's ignoring the ability to hit basically everything. Black mana symbol Hathrik's Conditioning is the Cabal Therapy. 1 mana symbolRed mana symbol Burst of Madness. Flashback: Discard a card. Gives a creature +2/+0 haste and first strike until EOT. 1 mana symbolGreen mana symbol Hunter's Dexterity. Flashback: Exile a creature card from your graveyard. Look at the top four, put a creature card from among them into your hand, then put the rest into your graveyard.

This cycle has the potential to do some hugely degenerate things. Not sure if banning is appropriate, but it's a very good set of cards.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:30
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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Oh, why was I not using Burst of Madness before? Now I can reanimate Earthsplitter at sorcery speed and kill with it instantly.

We did ban Resurrect, right? Or did it get an update?

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:32
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Resurrect is sitting on the banlist atm

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:42
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
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Why is everyone so keen on banning cards before they put up results? It seems like a lot of linear strategies are getting hated on, even when they are easy to disrupt and don't violate the turn four rule. I think people underestimate the power of fair decks with redundancy to suppress combo, especially in a format with this many Thoughtseize effects. I wouldn't ban anything (except for obvious mistakes like Greenheart Druid) until it puts up results, because most of these strategies are not as good as you seem to think they are.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:50
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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I mean, you could say that about Twin too, but...
Resurrect allows reanimator decks to kill often on turn 3 and consistently on turn 4. I was doing that testing myself. Corsair Maurader could probably come off the banlist if it actually is updated (I'll have to check on that)

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:53
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

"This many thoughtseize effects."

There's 3. Three good ones anyway. And one of them is banned.

Concerning the free cycle of flashbacks, none of those seem strong enough to warrant banning. The White mana symbol one is the most concerning, but that flashback cost is steep


I'm working on that beta - Atog changelist as we speak. The Marauder has not been changed to the fix proposed

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:53
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Not very steep when it counters a killspell or a control magic.

Cajun's Explorations
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fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:53
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Resurrect is definitely, definitely too good in a format with stuff like Drowner of Worlds and Overlord of Dega. Gilded Armor is definitely definitely too good in an equipment deck (even without Bloodthirster).

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:55
ThisisSakon
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It still requires two creatures to cast, and then it isn't "free" because you need to recast the creature. It helps and hinders, even if it only hinders a 1 mana symbol 1/1

Sat, 2016-02-20 17:58
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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You can also use it just to bounce the one creature being targeted. Also allows for ETB abuse. Not saying it should be banned, but it's better than you're giving it credit for.

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:03
Cajun
Cajun's picture

It doesn't target tho. Free insta bounce, and as a cost so you can't do much about it. Having to recast the critter is better than losing it 9 times outta 10.

I'm with Wind. Prolly not banworthy but it isn't a hindrance.

Cajun's Explorations
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fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:06
ThisisSakon
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But the point is its not strong enough to ban. It doesn't generate absurd amounts of Red mana symbol and Blue mana symbol, it doesn't create too many gold tokens, it doesn't dump your entire library into your graveyard, and it doesn't bring back a creature at instant speed for 2 mana symbolBlack mana symbol.

Also, could you imagine a format where you drop a Greenweaver Druid into a Resurrection and bring back Angel of Glory's Rise to just put your entire deck on the field on turn 3? And we don't even have a day of judgment effect

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:08
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
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Deceit, Volkihar Extraction, and Hathrik's Conditioning are a powerful suite of disruption. We have plenty of Mana Leak and Negate variants to keep things under check that do slip past the discard. If you do think these cards are too powerful, there are easy changes - Resurrect could be sorcery speed, Gilded Armor could give +2/+2, Drowner of Worlds could lose Hexproof. But I think having hoops worth jumping through, with adequate rewards when you can find your three-card combo and dodge your opponent's disruption, are important parts of good formats.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:12
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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Reanimator still functions and is still good without Resurrect. Do you know how many times I've instant-speeded a Resurrect in reanimator? I just use it as "oh, it's turn 3, shuffle all your permanents into your library" unless there's blue countermagic available.

Of course there's changes, it's just that none of those have been made. If cards change, we can easily look back at them.

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:24
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Quote:
But the point is its not strong enough to ban.
If we're gonna develop this into a proper format we gotta look at more than jus bans though. Unlike Modern/Standard, we can't really expect each set to be built around the same power level initially, but we still want a fairly consistent level.

Cajun's Explorations
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fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:24
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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That was why SoI went back for more work, right?

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:28
Decembra
Decembra's picture

I have a halfway opinion between Justnobody and the rest. Yes, we can and should exercise our ability to make more frequent changes to the MSE Modern format than WotC does or can to MTG Modern. But please don't get too hasty people, please. For one, if you're not sure about your theory, test the deck. If you're very sure about your theory and think you don't need to test the deck, find someone who has played the deck so they can either agree or disagree. That's a simple enough procedure that almost immediately guarantees that the reason for the change is JUSTIFIED.

Concerning the equipment deck. Many of the cards I used got nerfed and one got banned. I just want to ask. Has anyone but me actually played any version of the equipment archetype? The top decks of GP Athens "Modern" were more closesly on par with Legacy decks. I say this with confidence because nobody did extensive testing or deck tweaking and sideboards were loosely defined, AND STILL the level of power coming out of those decks were SCARY. But as Justnobody said, they defined the meta. Don't just take them right out of the meta by nerfing everything in the top tier unconditionally. We haven't even found every contender for top deck status yet. Procedure first, or we'll go through this loop ad nauseam. I'm going online on LackeyCCG custommagic now. Anyone who wants to discuss the equipment deck, in any way from building it to balancing it, can find me under the name Decembra.

I will note that the nerf on Battlefield Forgemaster was perfect. It's still very viable and it's a key piece in the equipment archetype.

Sat, 2016-02-20 18:34
ThisisSakon
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Ok~! So I've gone through and update the main post with three things:

Changes made between the beta and Atog updates

Cards in update Atog that have multiple copies

Cards questioned in the beta but have not been changed in Atog

I've probably missed some cards, but I based the 'questionable cards' list from the beta by going through this thread, the GP Athens thread, and the MSE modern thread and taking note of what cards everyone brought up. If I missed something, let me know. As of right now, only the main post is updated.