MSE Modern Judges' Lounge UPDATE ATOG

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Tue, 2015-11-17 19:57
jacqui-pup
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I mean, any combo of Wild Flames, Enthusiasm for Slaughter, and Maniacal Scourge can deal ten+ damage on turn 2.

Not an expert at balancing, but a 3/1 haste for Red mana symbolRed mana symbol WITH UPSIDE is really, really good.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Tue, 2015-11-17 20:01
ThisisSakon
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Oh right. Enthusiasm probably makes our power 9

Tue, 2015-11-17 22:43
Cajun
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arts for the board

Beast also gets trample, which likely pushes it too far. I've been testing a 1/1 for Red mana symbol with the discard: +1/+0 effect and he can win games fairly early with support, free trample might mean this guy can win alone.

Iunno if that guy costing 1 makes him more broken with with madness tho.

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Tue, 2015-12-08 19:44
Liz the Goddess
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So, I discovered this card the other day while trying to make a turbo-fog style deck. Everyone I've played it with acknowledges it's pretty busted. I'm the only one using it thus far, but if fog decks become an issue, this might as well. It's basically two turn fog for three mana. If the second ability only removed one creature, I think it'd be better. Still really good, but not quite busted territory.

I like bears.

Tue, 2015-12-08 20:25
Decembra
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Captain Grey: "To blunt the force of any foe, one must simply cast during combat."
Dude in the cap looks up: "And?"
Captain Grey: "And then it is done, lad."

Tue, 2015-12-08 21:55
WindyDelcarlo
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When are you NOT casting that during combat?

Tue, 2015-12-08 22:32
Cajun
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Maybe "skip all combat phases of this turn", and/or turn the Warforged into attacking creatures instead of creatures you don't control. Cause this says 2 mana symbolWhite mana symbol tap all creatures you don't control which monowhite has done all of twice at a higher price.

Still kinda has a 'would only cast it in combat' feel, but the not-Warforged still turns off on-attack triggers for the turn, where the Warforged would only manage that if there was a Relentless Assault incoming.

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Tue, 2015-12-08 22:52
WindyDelcarlo
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You can cast a spell in the beginning of combat before attackers. Such as after a Goblin Rabblemaster trigger resolves.

Wed, 2015-12-09 00:27
Cajun
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If you go with both proposals, it does nothing during that step. The combat phase has already begun so you don't skip it (probably), and nothing's attacking so you can't remove attacking creatures from combat. If you keep 'tap all' then yea that also prevents on-attack triggers and only stops the handful of beginning-of-combat triggers.

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Sat, 2015-12-19 20:34
jacqui-pup
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So do we have a finalized banlist for the new update after all these changes are made?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Thu, 2015-12-24 18:53
ThisisSakon
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I'm at work. Can someone who's not go through the beta MSE modern release and make a list of what cards changed in the Atog update?

Thu, 2015-12-24 19:13
WindyDelcarlo
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I had that list at one point in time, but I'm not sure how many cards actually were changed from before

Fri, 2016-01-01 04:47
WindyDelcarlo
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How did we miss Fairgold, the land that isn't fair and doesn't make gold? Biggest comparison I can think of is Vitu-Ghazi, but Fairgold costs 2 less mana, 1 less color, AND taps for white mana

Fri, 2016-01-01 05:43
ThisisSakon
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To be fair, we just thought it made gold

Fri, 2016-01-01 06:22
jacqui-pup
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I saw someone running it.

Chandra is pretty good at blowing those tokens up.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Fri, 2016-01-01 18:45
Waally1
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May I ask, what makes a set get into modern. What are the criteria. Also wouldn't it be a bit cooler and better if we scrapped the WoTC multiverse and made our own. No preexisting planes, characters? Sorry if this has been discussed before and if this is the wrong place to ask, I've been away for a bit.

Back after a long a hiatus! I want to make cards!
Devout MaRoist. The Color Pie must be upheld at all cost.
On mobile from now on, so my wording will be off. Hopefully it'll get the point across.

Fri, 2016-01-01 18:57
Neottolemo
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Last few times I played White mana symbolBlack mana symbol weenie I ran Fairgold for a while after I saw Korakhos running it. It's pretty good, yeah.
@Waally1: I don't think there are any criteria, you just have to ask. And the Multiverse being the WotC one or a new one I think is up to the creator of each individual set.

I thought some about it and I think we might be better off leaving CUW gold-bordered after all. Reason why is I think it's too small to be played on its own with the level of Limited variance larger sets have. We could try playing a few Limited games with it anyway, to see if that assumption is correct. Draft/sealed events including gold-bordered sets should probably become a thing anyway.

Fri, 2016-01-01 18:57
ThisisSakon
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Uhhh... You just kinda have to have a completed set. It doesn't even need art, although that'd be nice, but... yeah. Leave any sets you've done here or in the MSE modern discussion thread and someone will go through and see if there are any cards that need changing.

Fri, 2016-01-01 18:58
jacqui-pup
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A set gets into Modern if it's not wildly overpowered or color pie breaking.

It also depends on how well it fits into the existing sets. For instance, if you decided, "I'm going to retcon reach so that it can block unblockable creatures" ?? That wouldn't fly with MSE Modern because suddenly it introduces new rules into every other set in the plugin.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Fri, 2016-01-01 19:17
WindyDelcarlo
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Of note, I actually like that our multiverse can be the same as the WotC one. They've only been to the tiniest percent of the infinite planes. We can have a few of them for ourselves

Fri, 2016-01-01 19:46
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Yeah technically their can be an infinite number of planes in the multiverse so you could have many separate "universes" that never intersect.

Also, we have started an MSE standard using only community made sets on our own rotation and we started our own lore for that. It exists with the wotc multiverse but we are pretty much ignoring it and using our own.

Check out my updated set hub.

Fri, 2016-01-01 19:47
WindyDelcarlo
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Essentially, SoR and MTI are two guaranteed connections within MSE Modern to the WotC multiverse. Mercadian Tides is, well, duh, and SoR involves Zendikar.

Sat, 2016-01-02 03:08
jacqui-pup
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I mean, there are like five Chandras that are all mutually exclusive so we're playing fast and loose with canon here.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-01-02 11:45
Waally1
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May I suggest another thing. Just so decks don't have perfect mana and we have 50 functional reprints of one card. What if there was some talking amongst a people who made the set and there was some overseers who could just advise set builders to change their 1 mana symbolRed mana symbol 3 damage burn spell into Searing Spear or something that was recently printed. It would solve some problems of insane fixing and many functional reprints. But this is all conjecture, as I've not had a chance to play the format.

Back after a long a hiatus! I want to make cards!
Devout MaRoist. The Color Pie must be upheld at all cost.
On mobile from now on, so my wording will be off. Hopefully it'll get the point across.

Sat, 2016-01-02 15:01
WindyDelcarlo
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That logistic is actually why MTI has Volcanic Flare over Shard Volley. Pretty sure it was originally Shard Volley

Sat, 2016-01-02 18:04
jacqui-pup
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Yeah.

I'm paranoid about publishing lands with basic types because of the fetches?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-01-02 19:12
ThisisSakon
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Why is one of the Chandras mono Black mana symbol?

There's going to be a point we have to split up the lands because mana bases become too good. The question is, when do we do that? Do we wait until 5 color aggro dominated our GP?

And then the question becomes what lands do we allow? No one has printed Volcanic Island-esque lands yet, so what do we define as too much?

Sat, 2016-01-02 19:17
Cajun
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One way to go about is a dual limit. Probably doesn't extend to guildgate style ones, but something like 'can only run 8/12 lands from this list of duals' if it gets too bad. Then you can keep each iteration legal instead of working out who to cut.

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Sat, 2016-01-02 19:24
Neottolemo
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I think mono-Black mana symbol Chandra's possessed by the Helm or something like that.

Sun, 2016-01-03 01:15
WindyDelcarlo
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I'm pretty sure WotC still has better printed mana based than us

Sun, 2016-01-03 01:34
ThisisSakon
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They've got the fetches, pain lands, tango lands, fast lands, and the core set/innistrad duals, right?

We've got an awkward combination of half complete cycles. We should at least get some constancy

Sun, 2016-01-03 02:29
WindyDelcarlo
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Daij and I accidently have a complete cycle of Lands

Sun, 2016-01-03 16:51
Robot_Face
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I think it's important that the creativity of set makers isn't restricted by this one format. Instead of changing the set, could someone release an alternate version of the set file for MSE modern?

I'm not a real robot, but I have a real face!

Sun, 2016-01-03 17:04
WindyDelcarlo
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There's not a lot of things that happen in MSE Modern the force a card to be changed aside from it being broken And if the set creator doesn't want to change something (for example, I think Greenheart Druid was one of them like this, where it broke MSE Modern dredge but didn't want to get changed) it can just be banned from the format. I think that's a fine way to handle it, but if you think otherwise, I'd love to hear it.

Sun, 2016-01-03 18:46
jacqui-pup
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I think what worries me is the possible inclusion of allied fetches, which would probably obsolete basics altogether.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2016-01-03 18:52
WindyDelcarlo
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Then someone just needs to print nonbasic hate

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:25
jacqui-pup
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Oh, I'm already on it. I'm so, so on it.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:36
Cajun
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Hrm, I have Ruination coming, but maybe I'll go through with the initial Blood Moon idea if it's actually wanted...

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fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:38
WindyDelcarlo
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I tend to use basics anyways so I have an untapped fetchable land.

Sun, 2016-01-03 22:03
Daij_Djan
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WindyDelcarlo wrote:
Daij and I accidently have a complete cycle of Lands

We have? Thinking..

Sun, 2016-01-03 22:12
WindyDelcarlo
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Maybe it was someone else, but I thought you were in the card clinic asking about a land cycle when I commented how I have the same land cycle in a set but the exact opposite colors Neither are in the plugin yet

Sun, 2016-01-03 22:35
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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Oh yeah, I remember this - wasn't my cycle, though

Actually, since I became really curious, I searched for it and found it: Heads vs Tails has the counterpart to your cards Big smile

Sun, 2016-01-03 22:38
WindyDelcarlo
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Ah, it's HvT Sorry Daij!

Fri, 2016-01-22 20:30
jacqui-pup
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Question: Can Lumehaven be removed from the format?

I mean, no one actually likes the set, half the cards have no art, and no one plays with the cards from it. So why even have it in there?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Fri, 2016-01-22 22:48
jacqui-pup
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No offense to Lumehaven but it's like Theros but with no effort put into it flavorfully whatsoever. Or mechanically. Or...

I'm being mean but it's really not an interesting set and I really don't know what it's doing in the format.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Fri, 2016-01-22 23:14
Liz the Goddess
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Saying none of its cards have been played isn't true. I got my ass kicked by Delainor Assilant at the tourney. Some people've given a lot of love to Soilsilt Ingot. My Dwarf Deck digs this set super hard. Mindsapping has at least one fan. Bastion Sunflats is INSANELY good and I use it a good bit.

It might not be as polished, like with the lack of art, but it's still a great set. A lot of your sets didn't have full art, and a set I'm making now won't have full art (cause I can't find art for bear, penguin, seal, and walrus tribes ): ), so I don't think that should be a throw out. I just don't think it's "must be thrown out" unpolished.

I like bears.

Fri, 2016-01-22 23:33
Cajun
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Lumehaven looks like it could use some editing, but iunno that it needs to get axed, unless there's some kinda set/cardpool limit we're looking at. Stuff Like Guardian Liminid and Liminid Nix are strange, but aren't really hurting the format are they?

Quote:
(cause I can't find art for bear, penguin, seal, and walrus tribes
You're actually doing it? yussss

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fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
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Sat, 2016-01-23 00:47
jacqui-pup
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I guess I'm just really, really bothered by the ""enchantment creatures"" that are just... creatures. Why is a 0/5 defender an enchantment? I don't know.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2016-01-23 04:51
ThisisSakon
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I'm all for axing a set, but not just because it doesn't have art. Although, enchantmentless enchantment creatures are a concern. Who made Lumen?

Sat, 2016-01-23 07:29
WindyDelcarlo
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That was a team a while ago with about 5 million names that I can't remember off the top of my head. Kiku, Guitarweeps, and Annuttymous (I hope so?) were all involved