MSE Modern Judges' Lounge UPDATE ATOG

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Wed, 2015-11-11 21:31
ThisisSakon
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Oh I can only hope this is the hardest it gets. I think, since we have such a large collection to go through that was already out, that this is the most difficulty we will have. Once all the cards are given a look, we'll only have to worry about adding individual sets. Which we can have time to do

Wed, 2015-11-11 22:18
Cajun
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We're also in a small enough playerbase that we may be able to say "Don't run X and Y in the same deck" and be done with it.

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Wed, 2015-11-11 23:01
Guitarweeps
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Herzinth, the Bolt example is the biggest one. The more Bolt equivalents you have the more consistant early kills are. It only takes 7 "bolts" to kill a player. The reason they don't make more bolts is because then modern gets another 4 three damage cards for one mana increasing the chances of simply burning face to win.

@Cajun - We are right now yes, but we have just begun.

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:07
Liz the Goddess
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I think the reason it's so hard is because we have like ten sets at once going into this format. All the other formats have time to grow, so I'd say Wizards almost has an easier job Stick out your tongue But their current view on older formats is "let banning sort 'em out", so I dunno. We've also got the issue that people aren't designing for a format with everyone else. They're designing to their own moderns/standards. This makes it more rough when you rub the sets/blocks together.

I like bears.

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:10
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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It's not like Wizards designs cards for legacy. They didn't test Treasure Cruise much in Modern. If they did, they'd have made it not banned

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:12
ThisisSakon
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Marz is right on every account. As soon as we pour through all these sets, it just becomes a matter of nitpicking upcoming sets as they're previewed. We just have to catch up.

Guitar is also right. The longer this goes the more players we get and the more chances we have of an opening hand being a mountain and six bolts (It's an extreme example, but its an example.) So there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

What we could do is simply exclude functional reprints after 2 times. So a bolt can only ever be bolts 1-8. That's still a very, very uneasy resolution, but at least sets with functional reprints can still make it into MSE modern, just without said reprints.

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:18
WindyDelcarlo
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ACTUAL reprints (such as Adaptive Terrains) is okay, right?

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:18
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
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Or, since most of these burn spells just have arbitrary magical fire names, we can turn a functional reprint into a reprint by changing the name and avoid weird deck construction rules.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 23:36
ThisisSakon
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Actually, that seems way easier!

Thu, 2015-11-12 01:33
Guitarweeps
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Functional reprints are not the only problem. There are hundreds of different ways to design a one mana spell that does 3 damage.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2015-11-12 01:33
Guitarweeps
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Functional reprints are not the only problem. There are hundreds of different ways to design a one mana spell that does 3 damage.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2015-11-12 01:55
ThisisSakon
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Could we set up a way to submit a set for MSE modern? Like it has to pass through the group of judges (whoever that is at the time) to be allowed. And while the group dissects the set it's up to them to decide the fate of all one mana 3 damage spells

Thu, 2015-11-12 02:42
WindyDelcarlo
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I've made a few spells over my recent sets that are more expensive, but exactly lightning bolt if something is true (Stormfront from TD, for example. IT costs 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol, but with Deja Vu on it's actual Lightning Bolt)

Thu, 2015-11-12 02:55
marioware2
Head Administrator
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Hathrik's Conditioning has got to go.

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:11
ThisisSakon
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??

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:12
Guitarweeps
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So I would like to submit Young Warmaster

Young Warmaster White mana symbol
Creature - Human Soldier
Creatures you control get +1/+1 and have first strike as long as you control four or more creatures.
2/1

Why does this do SO MUCH for one mana? Pump and first strike plus he even pumps himself. To boot he starts 2/1.

Recommended White mana symbolWhite mana symbol at least, maybe legendary and doesn't pump self or give first strike OR 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol to keep first strike and not pump self.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:20
ThisisSakon
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I agree with you, and I was actually going to bring it up as soon as we knocked a few others off the list. Well, the bird is apparently already changed, so I need to remove that anyway.

I think at White mana symbolWhite mana symbol and other creatures he would be fair


That said, are there any cards we're comfortable with some of the suggested changes? Take a look at the first post, so we can compile a list to present the creators and move on to more cards in the format

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:19
marioware2
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Hathrik's Conditioning is our very own Cabal Therapy variant, a card that's too good for any "modern" format. We have enough hand disruption as-is. We don't need Therapy.

The whole of Community Core Set is a bit wonky - we may have to run through and review its power level to see if its worth even including in MSE Modern. It's particularly difficult to massage cards from it since they were all designed by different people, and I don't want to just jam half a set on the banlist.

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:23
ThisisSakon
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I've never played with HC, so I don't know its power level. Do enough people agree it needs to go? We can put it on the banlist, we have the power.

As for the core set, idk what to do about it... I'll add it to the sets that need review for now

Thu, 2015-11-12 04:09
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Core Set only seems problematic because of a few last-minute rare designs-- Young Warmaster isn't indicative of the set's power level. For the most part it's a very balanced set. Young Warmaster is strong, but I don't know if that's what makes weenie decks powerful. I frequently chump with him in my Soldier tribal deck so my dudes are eligible for a Blade of Free Will trigger. The first strike is probably overkill on this dude, though. I think he's a perfectly ok anthem-on-a-stick otherwise.

Even in games where I drew neither Maniacal Scourge nor Enthusiasm for Slaughter, I could pretty reliably win based on cards like Flameball-- which is arguably better than Lightning Bolt because of the flashback. It makes (the very good in burn actually) Bump in the Night look like a turd, for instance.

Hathrik's Conditioning is problematic in a format with actual Narcomoeba and a lot of functional Narcomoebas. Mind Snap from Time Hop does largely the same thing but not for free.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Thu, 2015-11-12 20:59
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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So with Arknia, I think it's the first set that's causing all the problems, not so much Scorched Earth or Dragon's Den. And it's causing all these problems because literally every spell in the format makes a Gold token. Including spells you'd play otherwise-- the 1 mana symbolBlue mana symbol Miscalculation has a Gold token attached. The Disperse variant has a Gold token attached. And these cards are all pretty fair in isolation, but together it's very, very easy to ramp. The Barter cards are all pretty fair; most of the Plunder cards are fair; it's just the huge swath of cards that generate 1 mana symbol whenever you do anything that makes the set so messy. Dragon's Den and Scorched Earth instead focus more on dragon tribal and giving boons to red decks, and they're much fairer.

SoI probably doesn't need a set ban since most of the cards are pretty weak; it's mostly a few degenerate cards with no relation to the main guilds. Probably the worst designed/balanced block in the format per Korakhos's own admission.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Fri, 2015-11-13 02:11
ThisisSakon
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What are the most problematic cards from SoI and who designed it? Since you say that seems to have the biggest offenders we should compile a list and present it to that person.

Another of the important screwy blocks seems to be TD. It's got the most cards on the first page. Unless TD is the first set of Arknia. I can't tell too well

Fri, 2015-11-13 02:18
WindyDelcarlo
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I know TD and Arknia have similar set symbols, but they're not the same thing TD only has Battlefield Forgemaster
SoI was Korakhos

Fri, 2015-11-13 10:50
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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Since I'm rather busy currently, I've lost track of this project a little bit, even though I totally love its idea. So I'm not sure if anyone is allowed to post here, but I just wanted to jump in to comment on one thing:

jacqui-pup wrote:
Core Set only seems problematic because of a few last-minute rare designs

Definitely agree with this. When we began with commons and even still uncommons, there was a lot more thought behind the cards but attendance sadly dropped to the end (when rares and mythics were due). So I'd say the set in general should be fine, yet individual cards might be quite unbalanced indeed (seems like a good idea to change some of them outside of this project as well anyway)

Fri, 2015-11-13 17:03
marioware2
Head Administrator
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There's a monogreen Mythic in the elementals cycle that's vastly overpowered. That guy should be first on the hitlist, even before the Young Warmaster.

Fri, 2015-11-13 17:13
ThisisSakon
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Name?

Also, you can of course post here, Daij! This is for everyone Big smile

Fri, 2015-11-13 22:19
monger
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@marioware2: Growth?

Flameball should probably be two mana or the flashback cost more so it's not a mostly better Geistflame as jacqui pointed out during our game.

Also, Ostracism should probably be on a watchlist of some sort- it's either going to end up as staple removal or oppressive. PtE works in Modern, but that could be different here.

Spoiler:
Flameball (Red mana symbol)
Sorcery (Uncommon)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Flashback 3 mana symbolRed mana symbol

Ostracism (Black mana symbol)
Instant (Uncommon)
Exile target creature. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

Sat, 2015-11-14 02:41
Korakhos
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jacqui wrote:
Probably the worst designed/balanced block in the format per Korakhos's own admission.

Actually, I admited to the block being weak mainly due to me being an inexperienced designer, but I never admitted it being the worst in the format, I just wanted to clarify that.
Nonetheless I have an issue: is my block really worth it? Most of the cards from the Iscathia block that are used in the format are there because they're broken and in need of nerfing. Any nerf is negotiable and I'm open to suggestions on how to improve, which is the main reason I post my sets here, because I want and need feedback, and most of these cards weren't even commented on upon the sets' release, only when they impacted the format. So I'd like to know if my designs have and actual influence in the format or if my sets can be removed from MSE Modern and the cards taken from them replaced. If nerfing is all it takes, let me know which changes you suggest and I'll see what I can do. If, instead, you want to remove the Iscathia block from the format, I'll hold no grudge against those who vote in favor of it and know I'll have to try harder in the future, I accept failure as a chance to improve so you are free to make your choice.

Sat, 2015-11-14 16:12
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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I would love to go over the set with you and redo some of the cards/mechanics. Some of the mechanics are kinda weak, for instance.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2015-11-14 16:58
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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I've noticed that even storm decks aren't using the Past in Flames. Then again, I'm the only one willing to go storm, so...

Sat, 2015-11-14 18:54
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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But honestly? For the time being I feel like banning the block is the best option. I'd rather not remove it from the format entirely since that might fuck up decklists, though.

Anyway, here's the list of duplicate cards in the format:

Containment Field
Demonic Blessing
Embrace of Shadows
Entice
Fireblades
Nascent Dragon
Parasitic Spores (which I've fixed, as the new version of Time Hop has a new name for that card)
Reaver Plunderer
Reforge
Savage Call
Silversea Pickpocket
Tavern Brawl
Unravel (THREE!! THREE DIFFERENT CARDS!)

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2015-11-14 19:13
marioware2
Head Administrator
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There are two tavern brawls?

Sat, 2015-11-14 19:26
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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Also, for reference, Unform is about to have a duplicate.

I'll be honest, among all the possible changed that could be made to a set (from a scripting perspective ) name changes are the WORST because they screw up numbering.

Sat, 2015-11-14 19:35
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Well, you can change that, right?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sat, 2015-11-14 22:41
WindyDelcarlo
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I was mistaken. I thought I saw Un-something as a second card. I was wrong

Sat, 2015-11-14 23:18
Cajun
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Uh, I had a Tavern Brawl incoming...and it even used the same art that the other two share. Guess there's not a lot of great art for a Tavern Brawl.

/wanders off to edit

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Sun, 2015-11-15 00:00
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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Whoops. I had an Unravel coming. Ahem, let's just, uh, fix that, shall we?

I like bears.

Sun, 2015-11-15 00:05
WindyDelcarlo
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Why is "Demonic Blessing" in SoI a white card? Isn't white literally the opposite of demonic?

Sun, 2015-11-15 00:07
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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I could just make my Unravel a reprint of the Lumehaven one? Not sure what to do about the third one though.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Tue, 2015-11-17 18:40
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Hey, so look at Burning Desire. Then shoot yourself in the face.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Tue, 2015-11-17 18:51
ThisisSakon
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Can I get an image? I'm at work. And can we get some sort of agreed list of changes thus far to present to designers? I feel completely out of the loop having worked all week.

Also, no gun, so pretend finger bullets will have to do

Tue, 2015-11-17 18:55
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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It's a 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol for a 3 damage burn spell, but it had madness for 1 mana symbolRed mana symbol that does 6 damage. I've never been good with madness. I'm not a spike, and I know how good it can be, but when I see it I just wrinkle my nose. But even this is too much.

I like bears.

Tue, 2015-11-17 18:56
WindyDelcarlo
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Hey, it used to be strictly better Bolt.
Also, i love how my phone gives no indication that it received a command

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:16
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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To be fair, I have never seen anyone use it against me, nor have I used it.

I like bears.

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:21
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Oh! I meant "shoot yourself in the face" in the sense that it's really, really good, not as an insult to Korakhos. Sorry.

But yeah, I skipped over that because I was too distracted by holy trinity of broken one-drops. (Is our Power Nine one-third red? Nice.) It's actually pretty bad in burn because the only ways to trigger it are Pyretic Cyclone (which is expensive) and Soulfire (which COULD be 10 damage for Red mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol but is a random discard). Kinda crazy elsewhere though. Good thing we don't have Wild Mongrel I guess.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:24
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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Voracious Firebeast: RR for a 3/1 with haste, discard a card, he gets +1/+0.

Ohhhhhh.

I like bears.

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:33
ThisisSakon
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I think the trinity was the Scourge, the blade, and something else I can't remember. Honorable mention should be mario's druid.

Our power 9 is 1/3 marioware

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:36
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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It's not bad. I'm just thinking of ideas for decks. I kinda meant to put a "boy" there at the end. Oohoo.

I'm worried, cause this is the second thing I've typed this morning that makes it sound like I'm accusing a card of being OP. Ignore me, I am incredibly tired.

I like bears.

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:36
ThisisSakon
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There's also a 1 drop in Blue/red mana symbol that you can sac for free to draw and discard

Tue, 2015-11-17 19:43
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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What would our Power 9 even be?
Also, Cyclone exiles, not discards.