MSE Modern Judges' Lounge UPDATE ATOG

Wed, 2015-11-11 03:54
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

This thread does not involve the judging of card contests. If you clicked because you were concerned, there are no rule changes. I don't have any control of that.


img (c) Matthew Stewart

Rules wrote:
  • Do NOT call for a card's immediate ban without leaving a reason to why it is broken.
  • Do NOT leave paragraphs of rules changes for other users to sift through. Separate points by page breaks [hr] or bold
  • Suggest changes, not nerfs
  • Have fun! We're people, not robots!

The Changelog
OLD Beta
Red wrote:
A lot of people have made complaints about the speed of red in general, reliably getting turn 3 to 4 kills. What to blame:

  • Maniacal Scourge: The Diddy Kong of MSE modern. "Whenever a red instant or sorcery spell you control deals damage, ~ gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the damage dealt."
    • MS has received the nerf of all nerfs: Maniacal Scourge now triggers on damage to "one or more other creatures or opponents". It gets a flat +2/+0 and gains first strike from the trigger. It has also been adjusted down to 0/1.
  • Enthusiasm for Slaughter: Doubles all damage that has yet to be dealt. No talk of nerfs, unless I missed some.
    • Has been and is currently being talked about, the latest cost is 1 mana symbolRed mana symbolRed mana symbol
  • Wild Flames: Hasn't come up much, but it hits an opponent for 4 damage at Red mana symbol.
    • Wild Flames now costs 2 mana symbolRed mana symbol, apparently

White wrote:
N/A
Try to break something!

Blue wrote:
N/A
Try to break something!

Green wrote:
  • Covetous Squirrel
    • Loses hexproof, but gains trample with enough power.

Black wrote:
N/A
Try to break something!

Multicolored wrote:
N/A
Try to break something!

Artifact wrote:
  • Blade of Free Will: Equipped creature gets +3/+3. Fairly straightforward, until you read it only costs 1 mana symbol to cast and can equip to any creature with power >3 for free.
    • Blade of Free Will will cost 2 mana symbol to cast and 3 mana symbol to equip in the next update.

Update Atog
  • Bloodthirster - No longer legal
  • Battlefield Forgemaster - No longer reduces equipment costs
  • Covetous Squirrel - Hilariously has trample now instead of Hexproof
  • Flameball - No longer legal
  • Ostracism - No longer legal
  • Burning Desire - No longer legal
  • Voracious Firebeast - No longer legal
  • Enthusiasm for Slaughter - Converted mana cost has increased by 2 mana symbol
  • Maniacal Scourge - Too many changes to list
  • Blade of Free Will - Both the equip cost and casting cost have been increased.

Duplicates wrote:
Multiple cards in multiple sets? Each doing something different? Oh NO!
  • Containment Field (WoC, lotE)
  • Embrace of Shadows (DGD, WoC)
  • Entice (Lume, ARK)
  • Fireblades (DBN, Lume)
  • Nascent Dragon (DD, SCE)
  • Reaver Plunderer (DBN, DBN)
  • Reforge (MSR, DBN)
  • Silversea Pickpocket (ARK, SCE)
  • Tavern Brawl (MSR, Lume, Tales)
  • Unravel (Lume, SCE)

The Banlist wrote:
here
The UnBanlist wrote:
Vote for a card to be unbanned! (A card must be fixed in some way to qualify for unbanning.)
  • Corsair Marauder: Changed to make one Gold token, regardless of how many creatures you smack your opponent with.
    • Votes: 2/5 votes to legalize

Questionable Cards wrote:
These cards were questioned in Beta and have not been changed in update Atog
  • Birds of Crystalmist
  • Carrier of Souls
  • Counterblast
  • Greed's Reward
  • Gloom Mentor
  • Young Warmaster
  • Hathrik's Conditioning
  • Brilliant Maneuver

Questionable Blocks wrote:
These are blocks that have not been reviewed, and potentially need to be:
  • Arknia
  • SoI
  • Community Core

Banned Blocks wrote:
These are blocks that are too strong for the format in version Atog:
  • VEB
  • SoI

Thu, 2015-11-12 03:18
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Researching Cards
Cards that are currently being discussed or are in need of discussion:

Proposed Fixes wrote:
  • Marz/TAFKAK: Change to only add Green mana symbol


Proposed Fixes wrote:
  • J-P: "Leaves the battlefield" trigger
  • J-P: "Cast from your hand" clause
  • MarW: +1 "Cast from your hand" clause
  • S: "Target creature not named carrier of souls"


Proposed Fixes wrote:
  • S: Cmc changed 3 mana symbol to 4 mana symbol
  • S: No double strike, but menace instead?
  • MarW: No second keyword. Just double strike


Proposed Fixes wrote:
  • J-P: Converted mana cost 3 or less restriction.
  • MarW: +1 Converted mana cost 3 or less restriction
  • S: +1 Converted mana cost 3 or less restriction
  • S: No divided damage. Please. No.
  • MarW: +1 Single damage source


Proposed Fixes wrote:


Proposed Fixes wrote:
  • Forgemaster
    • S: Remove the equipment reduction effect
  • Gloom Mentor
    • HZ: Make tokens, not reanimate. Nontoken dies clause
    • S: +1 Token production with a Nontoken dies clause
  • Young Warmaster
    • G: Increase CMC (White mana symbol -> White mana symbolWhite mana symbol) and add the word other
    • S: +1 Increase CMC and add the word other
    • G: Increase CMC (White mana symbol -> 1 mana symbolWhite mana symbolWhite mana symbol)

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:02
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

While not broken, something I've noted is fun is that the Evoke reanimator from the MSE Community Core Set reanimates every other copy of him as well as another creature if you do it right.

(I forgot his name, so I'm going to call him "Birdman" and the reanimation target "the big guy")

Stack evoke trigger to resolve first. Target the reanimation at a second Birdman.
Evoke trigger resolves, sacrificing Birdman. Reanimation resolves, bringing the targeted Birdman back.
Target the now-graveyarded Birdman with the reanimation trigger. Reanimation resolves. Rinse and repeat with any further copies of Birdman.
Using the last Birdman, reanimate the big guy.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:05
voltaic-qui
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
voltaic-qui's picture

Carrier of Souls. And this is hugely problematic with a sac engine. That can be fixed by either making it a leaves-the-battlefield trigger or adding a "if you cast it from your hand" clause.

The Birds of Paradise that makes gold when it dies is problematic.

Bloodthirster is kinda crazy-- it's the 2/2 hasty doublestriker for 3 mana symbol.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:07
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

That is a fun little combo. The pieces are there for a super competitive reanimator... But I feel it's missing one thing. I'm not sure what.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:14
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
CanterburyEgg's picture

I think mostly our goal should be to prune the turn 3 kills from our format (or at least turn 3 irreparable board states, like a hasty 8/8 double-striker). We should also make sure to reserve the right of anyone to change their cards in the format -- I know a few of the cards of mine I saw being played I wasn't pleased with and have since changed. As for bannings specifically, we can save those for cards that break the format and their creators don't want to change them (my Greenheart Druid is an example of this. Ruins the format but I like it the way it is).

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:16
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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Well, either don't want to or can't. Like, changing Quick Thinking for me now would require a change for both Volaria and the Duel Decks, the latter of which was designed based on it being 2 mana.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:17
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

^ This, this and above all else, this. (What Marioware Smooth Moves said)

I created a discussion board type thing below the main post. if you have a proposed fix, or a card you'd like everyone to look at, leave it on a separate line in Bold


For example

CMC Changed 3 mana symbol to 4 mana symbol

and I will add it to the bulletin board


Do NOT leave jumbled text piles and hope we all sift through them. Please.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:21
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
Liz the Goddess's picture

I gave this suggestion to Kiku last night for birds: If you make it tap only for G, it'd be fine. It's strong, better than your standard dork elf, but it's a pushed rare. If a common elf was better than it I would be concerned.

I like Jacqui's suggestion of casting from your hand to fix Carrier of Souls. That would make it 100% fine. I'm not ENTIRELY sure it needs it. The deck it's currently in is strong, but not oppressive like red. It's a turn 6 win at the latest, really.

I like bears.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:21
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

If you change the Carrier of Souls to "leaves the battlefield" (which I hope isn't to combat reanimator decks; that really wouldn't change anything ) make sure you say "another target" in the trigger so it's not infinite with a sac outlet.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:26
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
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Can you make Marzen's suggestions say Marz, and not Mar? It confuses me. A happy smile

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:27
ThisisSakon
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Oh my gosh everyone and their letters. I added a rules blurb to the top of the page. If I missed anything (Spoiler: I probably did) anywhere on the page, let me know.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:28
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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The birds give each player a gold token so what about it is broken?

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:29
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

It's not necessarily broken, it was considered very strong and has been put up for discussion.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:32
voltaic-qui
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
voltaic-qui's picture

Bloodthirster might be neat if it triggered off cards in a graveyard. Like, haste if you have five cards in your graveyard and double strike if you have ten (or thirteen? lol)

For Counterblast, if we want it to punish aggro, I've suggested having it specify spells with CMC 3 or less.

Greed's Reward is a blue spell I find HUGELY problematic, being out of color in blue. There's a card in Mercadian Tides that I think makes this a fun/ridiculous deck as opposed to a really easy win-the-game trigger.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:34
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

It's not that it's broken, it's that it's strictly better than an already powerful Modern card. Essentially, it'd be played over Birds of Paradise in any deck that wants Birds of Paradise.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:36
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

I don't know. Accelerating your opponent usually doesn't help you win games. And since they would likely be the source of killing it then they can take advantage of the effect. Just 2-4 cents...

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:44
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Ok. A couple of questions for everyone:

1) Did we all agree on a fix for Blade of Free Will? It's sitting in the changelog and idk if it should be there or on the bulletin board

2) What blocks were removed from MSE modern alread?

3) What are we doing about Sgt. Failure's Tales block? We had brought up at one point holding off on it.

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:49
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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The only block that's guaranteed cut is VEB. There was discussion about Arknia and SoI but no firm decision

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:54
Cajun
Cajun's picture

For Blade of Free Will, keep in mind Vulshok Battlegear is a thing. I'm leaning 3 cast 2 equip, I think reversing it to 4/1 may be overkill and makes the trigger fairly pointless.

Cajun's Explorations - Cajun Style Templates - High Noon Reloaded

fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Wed, 2015-11-11 04:59
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Ok. Questionable block list has been updated and a banned block list has been added.

If you bring up a card not on the discussion board, can you please find the card image and post it along with your comment? It makes adding them to the board a bit easier and it takes a lot of bloat away from my poor storage.

Wed, 2015-11-11 05:51
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
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Blade is going to be 2 mana symbol cast/3 mana symbol equip in the next update. We'll test it there and see what happens.

Wed, 2015-11-11 14:55
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

I agree that maybe we should stop pointing fingers for now and start maybe using those fingers to tinker with the cards on the bulletin board. I would love the idea of forcing gold decks to be Green mana symbolBlue mana symbol and having the squirrel be the wincon.


What if Carrier of Souls just had a restriction that said "target creature not named carrier of souls"


What if bloodthirster had menace instead of haste?


In order to try to force Gold decks to be GU, what if we let the bird tap for Green mana symbol or Blue mana symbol?

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:13
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
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I think Carrier is cleaner with the "if you cast it from your hand" clause. I think that's sleeker. Especially since it doesn't let you reanimate a Carrier of Souls with some other spell and then reanimate a fatty off of that. The reanimation spell in Glacia causes it to ETB tapped - if you can circumvent that by reanimating a carrier (tapped), then in turn reanimating a fatty untapped, things get pretty stupid pretty quick.

I honestly don't think Bloodthirster even needs a second keyword. Isn't a 2/2 double-striker for 3 mana symbol strong enough?

I have no qualms with the bird in any state.

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:21
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Oops. I totally meant no double strike, but have menace instead. I'm also... ok... with the birds as is, although it does bother me a bit that it is strictly better than Birds of Paradise. I like Birds of paradise

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:25
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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Covetous Squirrel seems unnoticeable at first. Until you actually play against it and are being having your face being beaten in by a 32/32 because it was landed on turn 1 under countermagic and dodges everything but wrath

I've just gotten a message that some updates are happening to Arknia, so there's some things getting fixes (that squireel, for example, is no longer having hexproof but instead picks up trample if it's huge enough)

I don't think making the green gold stuff win conditions will force deck to be green-blue. Black has so many gold enablers that the sultai colors can be literally any combinations of colors.

While we're there, it might just me being sad that I can't bolt it, but Desiree makes mana every turn and hops out of Lightning Bolt range the turn she enters the battlefield. Not sure if that's too powerful or not.

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:24
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Keep us updated on the changes! I'll go ahead and remove the squirrel for now and put it in the changelog

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:29
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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The other thing that was on this list was Birds of Crystalmist, which now only gives the opponent gold when it dies, but you can invest a mana to exile it from your graveyard and get a gold.

Also, Corsair Maurader (currently on the ban list) now has the phrase "one or more" added to the "plunder for everyone". So on a board of 5 pirates, you only get one Gold token now. I'm still personally worried about Plunder, but who knows, maybe I'm just paranoid

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:28
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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But it gives your opponent a gold so it isn't strictly better...

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:30
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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In essence, it's Birds of Paradise that does something else too. If I gave a Bird trample, it's still strictly better even if it has 0 power

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:34
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

It doesn't matter what it gives the opponent, it has extra text that BoP doesn't have that gives you more mana and it has the exact same stats as BoP. That's, to me, strictly better.

I like the change on Corsair Marauder. I think that might make it able to be unbanned, but I'd like opinions from justnobody, jacqui, and mario too (Gosh I wish you could tag people in comments)


If you have to put mana into it and exile it from your graveyard, I'd prefer that the Bird didn't give opponents a gold token on death. But that circles us right back around to being significantly better than BoP

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:36
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

Most of the cards posted above seem fine. Counterblast and the Forgemaster are real issues, though.

Also, on the subject of sacrifice fodder, Gloom Mentor, anyone?

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:42
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Counterblast could slanted towards a control deck counter (and not a tempo) if it only hit a creature. But it definitely needs a cmc restriction. And a single damage output


Gloom Mentor is... well that is certainly an odd card

Wed, 2015-11-11 16:45
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
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The Marauder at least deserves a test run with the change. I like Pirates. They're cool!

I think counterblast is swell at the "Counter CMC 3 or less, bolt" text, and I expect that's what it will change to.

Wed, 2015-11-11 17:08
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

I've added an "unbanned list" to the banlist. If a card on the banlist receives enough changes, it can qualify for being unbanned. The (at this moment) five 'judges' can vote on its release into MSE Modern. I want to keep votes between justnobody, mario, myself, wind, and jacqui for now because it prevents any sort of tie from being reached.

(The two votes for the unbanning of Corsair Marauder are myself and marioware2)

Wed, 2015-11-11 17:58
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

I think, if we are issuing errata, there should never be a need to ban a card. Bans are only used in paper because there is no way to retract a card once it has been released.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 17:59
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Ugh...maybe it is just me but I just don't like misusing "strictly better". I would choose BOP over these 90% of the time. Potentially fixing or ramping your opponent is very relevant. But I guess it is just a strange pet peev for me...

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2015-11-11 18:10
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

Yeah, I think the BoP is fine. Ramp is already vulnerable to tempo decks killing its mana dorks, and the tempo decks benefit from the gold token more. This BoP is better in decks built around gold or creature sacrifice and worse in nearly every other type of deck.

And it is precisely not strictly better than BoP, the same way Dream Fracture isn't strictly better than Cancel.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 18:17
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Like Tupperware said, sometimes the creator of a card won't change a card and the card will stay banned. Plus, the banlist was created before we started passing out erreta. Plus plus, we shouldn't go around erreta-ing every little thing. Some card will just have to get a ban for being too oppressive

Wed, 2015-11-11 18:26
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

On the subject of Counterblast, counter a three-drop + kill a creature for three mana is still really powerful. Although it certainly can be played around, it's a cheap, efficient two-for-one that plays very well in draw-go control.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:11
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Yeah, Gloom Mentor is just all around an odd card. It needs some serious fixing. Can anyone hit me with a picture so I can add it to the bulletin board? I'm not at my computer


Also, so the bulletin board doesn't become clogged over time, can we focus on changing the cards on it before we move on? I understand there are cards like Gloom Mentor and everything, but they're not going anywhere

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:21
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

Can we get a list of sets who's creators are open to errata so we can focus on those first? No use trying to balance cards we can't change.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:29
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Well that's where the MSE judges would come in. They would edit a card as a last resort where the set creator can't/won't/can't be reached. Which is why we should take this slow, focus on the most problematic cards (Gloom Mentor, Battlefield Forgemaster, Greed's Reward) and not just toss every card we don't like up on the board.

The bird, bloodthirster, and friends are all up there because they were being talked about as the thread was being created


I'll see what sets I can make list of when I get home. That's impossible to do from my phone

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:34
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Gloom Mentor

Cajun's Explorations - Cajun Style Templates - High Noon Reloaded

fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:39
justnobody
Card of the Year 2015
justnobody's picture

Ok, then why would we ever ban a card? Ether the set's creator changes it, or they can't/ won't and we do.

Met the devil of card design and sacrificed my creativity for unparalleled templating skill.

Spoiler:

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:44
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Because we shouldn't throw an erreta at everything that moves. Changing the way a card works should be saved for degenerate cards that didn't have much thought put in them in the first place. The banlist can also act as a buffer, removing cards from the format until we can agree on a fix.


Also, thanks Cajun ♡

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:51
Cajun
Cajun's picture

I think you have it backwards, shouldn't errata be for tweaks and bans for the unredeemable?

Cajun's Explorations - Cajun Style Templates - High Noon Reloaded

fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Wed, 2015-11-11 19:58
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

Maybe a little bit. What I mean (and I'm going to use the most extreme of examples)

We have two cards:

"Counter target permanent. This deals 3 damage to target artifact"

And

"Split second. You win the game"

Obviously, the first one is trying to be a card, but the designer didn't try on the wording. That's fixable. The second one is just being unfair, and we shouldn't reward that, so banlist.


Alternatively, we could make a list of cards and fixes, present list to designers, and change what they approve/ban what they don't.

Wed, 2015-11-11 20:05
CanterburyEgg
Head Administrator
CanterburyEgg's picture

Let's not change anything without designer approval, hm? I very specifically want my Druid to get basics, which breaks the format, and I'm much happier having him banned than changing the card. If the designer doesn't want the card to be changed or can't be reached, let's not make the decision for them.

Wed, 2015-11-11 21:01
ThisisSakon
ThisisSakon's picture

I MADE IT THROUGH!!!!! Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile

Ultimately, the erreta exists because we can't ban everything, and the bans exist because we can't erreta everything. They operate with an uneasy harmony, never existing without the other.

We should also pay attention to mechanics and redundancy. It was pointed out that there are several functional Suntail hawks in the format. At what point is a line drawn? Do we allow Lightning Bolt in one set, and allow 'Lightning Fang' to exist as lightning bolt 5-8? What do we do for mechanics that are eerily similar? Do we ban an entire mechanic if it breaks another mechanic? If so, which mechanic do we ban?

Wed, 2015-11-11 21:28
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
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I cannot imagine how much Wizards of the Coast has to go through I mean, I guess we are right at the start of the format, so it's probably going to be a lot harder for us.