MSE Modern and LackeyCCG Discussion [Download in Original Post]

continued...
Mon, 2016-04-18 14:02
voltaic-qui
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"If you consider one card to be problematic"

Oh yes we do.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Mon, 2016-04-18 14:41
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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OK, I'll listen Winking smiley

(Not sure whether this is the right place here or if it should be done in my thread instead.)

Mon, 2016-04-18 16:18
voltaic-qui
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Wind has said Manamorphose would break MSE Modern Storm. Life-Giving Waters is Manamorphose but better. (The mana doesn't go away at end of turn, for starters; cruel synergy with lands that tap for two mana also helps.)

I suggested making it specify "untap two basic lands" and Wind got upset, which means it's probably fairer like that.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Mon, 2016-04-18 16:55
Daij_Djan
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Ah ok - since I know literally nothing about the MSE meta, I can hardly argue against this issue

Looking at the card again

First thing I notice is how the card is actually not restricted to your own lands - messing with your opponent's (or teammate's) lands wasn't intended at all, so this definitely will be changed. Second, there actually is no need to worry about stuff like additional land ability tricks - the card turns the target(s) into basics rather than granting them additional basic land types (compare Grixis Illusionist oracle rulings), so they lose all other abilites they might have had. Simply not using the lands the given turn actually is a valid point, though. Finally should point out the current version has one flaw compared to the original Manamorphose: It turns both target into the same land type, so you can't get access to two different colors of mana. Still, will ponder about it a little.

Btw, a change-log will be added to the first post of my PoA thread for this as well as some other potential issues Winking smiley

Mon, 2016-04-18 17:45
WindyDelcarlo
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I'm not as much upset as pointing out that it will make it unplayable instead of broken. You just acted like it'd still be reasonable in storm with the only-basics clause trust me, I know making storm consistent is a bad idea

Mon, 2016-04-18 18:08
ThisisSakon
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The issue with Life-Giving Waters wasn't that it could target other people's lands. I understand that that could be a concern, potentially color-screwing your opponent and time walking them (with a cantrip, yikes!)

The card breaks MSEM storm in half. The decklist is already teetering on the edge as is, and the deck doesn't really care that the mana is the same color or that it can't produce more than one mana per land, the deck cares that its a free card. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with storm running 56 cards and an automatic +1 to storm count at all times

Mon, 2016-04-18 18:16
voltaic-qui
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As an aside Desert Temple might cause problems? I don't know if Desert Temple would break the format or not.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Mon, 2016-04-18 18:20
Daij_Djan
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Will ponder a little about the card then. Have to admit, I'm not sure whether I'll suggest a change or rather a complete ban instead, though. The later would be kind of a shame - but steering away too much from the original is a little sad as well Winking smiley

Mon, 2016-04-18 18:27
ThisisSakon
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Desert Temple might end up as a 4x in every deck because of how good both options are. Maybe the top half should be mana confluence and the bottom half could deal 2 damage?

Although I'm not really sure about it... It does give the opponent a choice, so it looks stronger than it will ultimately be. But it enables ramp like no other

Mon, 2016-04-18 18:29
ThisisSakon
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We haven't gone through all the recent ones yet, although I'm sure most of them are in. Were trying to use Ashura as a jumping off point, as well as a few other sets I don't remember

Mon, 2016-04-18 19:50
WindyDelcarlo
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That's kinda the problem. I don't remember either Most of the new ones, if I could remember which ones those were, are going to be in

Mon, 2016-04-18 20:06
WindyDelcarlo
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Also Library of Eons. It's not getting forgotten this time

Mon, 2016-04-18 20:07
ThisisSakon
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<3

Mon, 2016-04-18 21:06
voltaic-qui
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It's fine, I'm just really hoping Korakhos gets a shit ton of art for it before we add it

CUW had the same problem

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Mon, 2016-04-18 21:32
WindyDelcarlo
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It's in my set files for the update, so I guess so? I don't remember when I did that

Mon, 2016-04-18 23:45
Korakhos
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@jacqui: don't sorry, I've been spending the last couple of weeks looking for art, currently the set has more than 50% of it's art and I'll reupload it when only 50 cards or less are missing art.

@Wind: is it too late to change names? Because some names were just spur-of-the-moment things and I disliked them so I changed some, is it cool?

Tue, 2016-04-19 04:14
WindyDelcarlo
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Yeah, just send me the new file and I can handle it

Sun, 2016-05-22 21:52
WindyDelcarlo
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Version Cephalid

Patch Notes wrote:
Plugin Changes:
- Plugin is now named MSE Magic

Set Additions:
- Ashura (ASH)
- Frystaria (FRY)
- Dabriohm (after being missed last update) (DAB)
- Khaliz-Doran and its tokens (KZD)
- Mukrasa (MKR)
- Pyramids of Atuum (POA)
- Revelations of Ziltrem (ZIL)
- Memory's Collapse (MMC)
- Memory's Tyranny (MMT)
- The Lost Tales (LTA)
- Library of Eons finally makes it into the plugin (LOE)

Format Changes:
- Ashura, Frystaria, Dabriohm, Revelations of Ziltrem, Khaliz-Doran, Mukrasa, Library of Eons, The Lost Tales, Memory's Tyranny, Memory's Collapse, and Pyramids of Atuum are added to MSE Modern.
- Ashura, Imprisonment of the Eldrazi, and Preasti bind together to create MSE Standard.
- Sakon Standard now includes Xoltan, Library of Eons, The Lost Tales, and Mukrasa
- Arknia and Dragon's Den are removed from MSE Modern

Token Changes:
- ALL of the tokens in the plugin exist now. The formatting in non-unique names is "Set, Color if necessary, Type". Searching the type should always turn up the card you want if it's not explicitly named.

Card Changes:
Spark of Revolution:
- Arina, Volarian Explorer's emblem now allows you to cast any spell from exile.
- Sarah, Entelan Elementalist now costs 3RR.
- Mul Daya Elder now costs 2GG.
- Encrypted Dagger now requires that the creature damages a player.
Mercadian Tides:
- All Gold tokens now mimic WotC Gold.
Scorched Earth:
- Lootrunner is now a 2/2.
Assassin's Creed: Chronicles:
- Alluring Hunter now only targets one creature rather than all of them.

Sun, 2016-05-22 22:16
ThisisSakon
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Don't forget that ACC is in Sakon Standard A happy smile

Excited for version Cephalid!

Sun, 2016-05-22 22:36
WindyDelcarlo
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Ooh, so it is. Keep that in mind, the format filter won't include it.

this plugin is a separate name, so to keep your decks you'll have to copy them from the other plugin

EDIT: HOLD ON. I definitely forgot something here. Let me figure out what didn't happen.

Mon, 2016-05-23 00:45
WindyDelcarlo
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OKay, try again. Everything SHOULD be solved.

Mon, 2016-05-23 15:27
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
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Can't open Ashura packs, as the cards do not appear to be there.

I like bears.

Mon, 2016-05-23 15:47
ThisisSakon
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ugh

Let me see about that

Mon, 2016-05-23 16:16
WindyDelcarlo
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Don't bother, I know the problem. Hotfix coming out later today

Mon, 2016-05-23 22:35
WindyDelcarlo
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*sigh* Alright, let's hope I didn't screw more up. Sorry guys, this was a really sloppy update

Thing

Changelog.txt wrote:
May 23, 2016: Cephalid Hotfix #2 (Hopefully the last one)

Set Changes:
- Uh... How did ASH not manage its way into the allcards file?
- Mukrasa is now MKA rather than MKR. If you used Mukrasa cards, fix those.
- Dabriohm somehow didn't exist either.

Format Changes:
- MKA, MMT, MMC, and LTA are all actually in MSE Modern now.

Token Changes:
- Fixed image bugs.

Wed, 2016-05-25 00:23
WindyDelcarlo
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Ugh, screwed up more. That previous link works correctly now.

Yet Another Changelog wrote:
May 24, 2016: Cephalid Hotfix #3 (Ugh)

Bug Fixes:
- Dabriohm is actually in the set file.
- MSE's method of using apostrophes that Lackey doesn't recognize is fixed.

EDIT: Important note!

Windy on behalf of balancing wrote:
Epiphany Storm is a deck I've been playing a lot of. I have a lot of fun playing with it, a lot of others don't enjoy playing against it, but it used to be inconsistent enough to be fine sitting around as one of the most powerful decks. However, with recent releases and/or new deck developments, it became extremely consistent in MSE Modern. After discussion, I determined that it was balanced in block (SoI) and in EDH, but in MSE Modern, something is clear: Epiphany Storm is a problem. WE'll look back at this later with more testing and possibly decide if the card should be changed, but until then...

Miraculous Epiphany is banned.

Wed, 2016-05-25 02:59
WindyDelcarlo
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I might have fixed it. REmind me what it was?

Wed, 2016-05-25 03:18
voltaic-qui
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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The 10 gold cards with the wrong images.

Also, KZD isn't in the plugin for some reason.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Wed, 2016-05-25 03:20
WindyDelcarlo
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KZD is, it's just not in the MSE Modern filter. I'll fix that in the next update.

As far as the gold cards go, so I don't have to disrupt everything with ANOTHER patch, I'll suggest playing them as they look rather than the text says and I'll fix that for the next update

Wed, 2016-05-25 09:51
KnexWiz
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A couple questions/comments I have never having played any games on lackey but having it downloaded and have looked at it a couple times:

Is there a game night of any sorts of MSE Modern? I'm not exactly sure where to go to find people to play (beside randomly checking lackey). If there isn't a game night/weekly tournament I'd love to host some once I get more used to the program. I've hosted tournaments on MTGO & Cockatrice, and have streamed before if people were interested in games ending up on Twitch and YouTube.

Secondly, I noticed that come cards had scripting on them, but it seemed like a lot of them didn't. I'm pretty quick at picking up scripting/programming, so if someone was willing to show me the ropes I'd be happy to help in my spare time.

Lastly, I've been contemplating for a couple weeks about what the best way to get our weekly CotwC winner cards into MSE Modern, other than just including all of them. I think the best solution would be a series of duel decks, as it is difficult to incorporate a lot of cards in an actual set due to the countless themes present throughout the cards. Duel Decks, however, are a lot easier to design and we could fit a couple CotwC cards in each deck and pull the rest of the cards from existing MSE Modern legal sets. I did notice that the two Duel Decks in the plugin were listed as not legal for MSE Modern. Could duel decks, given the proper development, be added to the format? I wanted to ask before I did too much work laying out an entire plan that would span multiple duel decks.

I'm excited to help with MSE Modern in any way you need me to! I already enjoy casually keeping track of the CotwC Archive Set so I feel like there is a lot more I can do.


Archive
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110 Weeks and counting!

Wed, 2016-05-25 10:18
Daij_Djan
Moderator Best Set of 2016
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PoA actually contains one of my old CotW entries (even though no winner) and my next set will feature an old CotW winner (not my own card), just as I've already permission to feature another user's old entry in the set after that^^

That aside, have to say I'm thrilled to see PoA included Big smile While I propably will never participate in the format (I sadly don't enjoy playing card games sitting in front of a computer), it's totally awesome to see this growing and people finally playing with all our wacky designs Winking smiley

Wed, 2016-05-25 15:05
WindyDelcarlo
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I tend to keep Duel Decks and other supplementary products out of MSE Modern because their unstructured, similar to the way some sets don't get into MSE Modern. There's no specific game night, although there's generally a person floating around doing nothing at times.

The scripting is only cards that actually need it. Spawning tokens, scrying, entering tapped, etc. If you notice cards that do a thing that can be scripted but isn't, feel free to let me know and I can fix it.

Wed, 2016-05-25 15:15
voltaic-qui
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Although, Duel Decks consisting of only MSE Modern legal cards...? Possibly with new and sexy art...?

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Wed, 2016-05-25 15:28
WindyDelcarlo
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I mean, duel decks consisting of MSE Modern legal cards, like an "MSE Masters" set, would generally stay MSE modern legal

Wed, 2016-05-25 18:00
Neottolemo
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Hey, I uploaded a new set file for CUW with all cards with art and all, but it appears you haven't updated CUW with the right images, or put it in MSE Modern. Why is that?

Wed, 2016-05-25 18:05
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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The main problem I would see with CotW being put in MSE Modern is now that is a factor when people are voting. You might think the card is cool but not want it in MSE Modern or vice versa. What if it is costed to low or high? What if it is broken. I think it is better to maybe compile them and be more aggressive at finding slots in a set for them.

Check out my updated set hub.

Wed, 2016-05-25 18:45
WindyDelcarlo
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@Neo probably because I forgot to do that. I'll get on that when I get home

Wed, 2016-05-25 23:03
KnexWiz
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@Guitarweeps: That's kind of the point of doing supplemental products; no card is guaranteed a spot in a deck. I would test the cards thoroughly (in mse modern) before actually putting it in a deck. Cards like Tamper, Bloodcast, Intellectual Theft, Hau-Zi, the Lotus Bearer and Deity of Drain wont ever be considered for these, and I'll make damn well sure cards like Sforanbolt, Ingenuous Alchemist, and Imperial Dead aren't too good before using them. The reason I really want to do this is so cards like Search for Evidence, One and Done, Biotechnics Researcher, Vaporform and Gloomy Horizon can exist in MSE Modern. My goal is far from getting all the cards onto MSE Modern, its to allow us to play with some of the most elegant designs to come over the past few years; not to play with the coolest thought experiments about how broken we can make a card and still make it seem reasonable.


Archive
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110 Weeks and counting!

Wed, 2016-05-25 23:40
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Ok, I misunderstood then. I will say though that all your examples could easily be put in a set given the proper setting.

Check out my updated set hub.

Thu, 2016-05-26 12:56
Neottolemo
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Ok so I can't open the plugin at all and I don't know why. I can open Version Beeble just fine, and I can also open the BOO Draft plugin, but the MSE Modern plugin doesn't give me the option to open it. Any idea why that could be?

Thu, 2016-05-26 14:11
WindyDelcarlo
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Are you looking through recent plugins or are you browsing the plugins folder? (Recent plugins is the drop-down box. Browsing is an in-window pop-up that shows all plugins, even ones never used before)

Thu, 2016-05-26 14:36
Neottolemo
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Browsing.

Thu, 2016-05-26 16:48
WindyDelcarlo
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Does it not show up or just not let you open it?

Thu, 2016-05-26 19:13
Neottolemo
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It shows up but I can't open it. I tried to screenshot it and upload an image to Imgur but apparently I can't use the uploader yet so I'll send the image to you by PM later or something, okay?

Thu, 2016-05-26 20:14
WindyDelcarlo
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Sure. I'll see how i can help

Sat, 2016-05-28 12:14
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
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Anyone know why I would get "The system could not find the specified file" whenever I try to extract the plugin?

Nevermind. I'm dumb.

Another question: How do I drill it down to the standard formats? i.e. MSE Standard and Sakon Standard

OMG dumb again...

Check out my updated set hub.

Sat, 2016-05-28 15:20
WindyDelcarlo
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Don't worry, all you have to do when you feel dumb is remember how many times I had to patch the update

Sat, 2016-05-28 16:37
voltaic-qui
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
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Hey, do we have a plugin errors thread? I found one: the cards with Colorless mana symbol in their mana costs all have the wrong CMC.

formerly jacquipup

"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game."

Sat, 2016-05-28 23:20
WindyDelcarlo
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No we don't. We probably should

Fri, 2016-06-17 17:57
ColinBeck
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I'm having trouble with lackey- yesterdy I could connect just fine, but now whenever i try to connect to the ame matching server, it takes a while to load, says I have been severed, then disconnects me. I have tried closing and updating, and it hasn't fixed it. Anyone else have a similar problem or a solution?

I'm wearing my optimistic trousers today!