MSE Modern and LackeyCCG Discussion [Download in Original Post]

Login or register to post comments
continued...
Sat, 2015-10-10 22:17
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

What's your favorite basics? I love the Glacia castle Snow-covered islands

Sun, 2015-10-11 05:32
monger
monger's picture

Okay, so the deck I was working on is semi-complete, but now it's leaning a bit towards the "stupid" side. Can someone more familiar with the sets recommend some cards? I think I got everything, but I'm afraid I may have missed something. It's supposed to go off T2-3 but leans closer to T3-4, occasionally spread across multiple turns. (although that might be my lack of expertise with storm)
I'd also like advice on my manabase.

Spoiler:
I've provided simplified versions of the cards in spoilers
and now that I've done that it looks quite ugly.
Decklist
Spoiler:
Rituals (22)
4x Disaligned Ritual
Spoiler:
RR instant, add RRRRR to your mana pool only to cast instant/sorceries

4x Electroflare
Spoiler:
1R instant, add RR to your mana pool plus RR if you cast another instant/sorcery this turn

2x Lerina Charm
Spoiler:
RR instant, add RRR to your mana pool or deal 3 damage to target player

4x Night of the Dragon
Spoiler:
(seething song) 2R instant, add RRRRR to your mana pool

4x Smeltstoker
Spoiler:
1R sorcery, dual casting, add RRR to your mana pool

4x Transmute
Spoiler:
2G instant, add 3 mana of any colors to your mana pool, draw a card

Combo Pieces (21)
4x Aqueous Solution

Spoiler:
2G instant, buff a colorless creature, U: discard it to cast a 3-mana instant from your deck at sorcery speed (reform)

3x Days of Future Past
Spoiler:
(past in flames) 3U instant, instants and sorceries in your graveyard gain flashback equal to their mana cost until end of turn, flashback 4U

4x Hydrostrike
Spoiler:
1U instant, tap target creature, U: discard it to cast a 2-mana instant from your deck at sorcery speed (reform)

3x Miraculous Epiphany
Spoiler:
7RR sorcery, exile the top ten cards of your library and cast any number of instants/sorceries in them for free

4x Predetermined Results
Spoiler:
1U instant, whenever you cast an instant/sorcery this turn, draw a card

2x Pyroflare
Spoiler:
4RR sorcery, deals damage to target creature/player equal to # of instant/sorceries in your graveyard

1x Study the Tradewinds
Spoiler:
U instant, draw a card, kicker 1U for whenever you cast an instant/sorcery this turn, draw a card

Lands (17)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Forest
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Spires of Tvornica (U/R tapdual)

(waiting on sideboard until the meta develops more)

Choices

Spoiler:
Rituals (22)
4x Disaligned Ritual- great card, fuels my rituals and provides a net gain of 3 mana
4x Electroflare- net gain of 2 mana
2x Lerina Charm- mostly run as another ritual, net gain of 1 mana with the option of a bolt to feed pyroflare
4x Night of the Dragon- seething song is indeed good
4x Smeltstoker- net gain of 1 mana but easier to cast than charm and can be dual'ed for 2 mana
4x Transmute- turn red rituals into blue for other cards plus cantrips on its own

Combo Pieces (21)
4x Aqueous Solution- fetches basically any ritual or results for U. Very good (I mostly fetch Transmute, Results, or Disaligned)
3x Days of Future Past- being blue hurts it, but still a very strong card
4x Hydrostrike- fetches results or most rituals for U. Very good (I mostly fetch Results or Disaligned)
3x Miraculous Epiphany- incredibly bomby, shove mana into my mana pool and draw a lot if results is active. If I hit another one off of it, that's probably game
4x Predetermined Results- one of the key cards, allows me to chain rituals and then win
2x Pyroflare- the wincon. Throw it at their face
1x Study the Tradewinds- mostly here for emergency protection, fetched with hydrostrike once in a pinch but that's the only time I've cast it

Lands (17)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Forest
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Spires of Tvornica (UR tapdual)
I don't usually need more than three lands and need a maximum of four, so this has suited me so far. Tarn and Rainforest can fetch an Island T1 if it looks like I have a win or just grap Spires to be prepared.

Already Cut

Spoiler:
-Alenil Runepiker/Runechanter/Hysterical Hunt (creature-based wincons are easier to sideboard for)
Spoiler:
3RR haste first strike, gets +X/+0 equal to the # of instant/sorcery cards in your grave
2RR, haste, 2R T sac, deals X to target player where X is the # of instant/sorcery cards in your grave
4R Instant, get a 1/1 red Human with haste for each instant/sorcery in your grave

-Resonating Roar/Time Again (took up too much mana)
Spoiler:
both 2R Instant, copy target instant/sorcery and you may choose new targets, Roar has reverberate 1R (when you cast pay its reverberate cost to copy it) and Time has replicate 1U

-Ancestor's Wrath (random really hurt it)
Spoiler:
2R sorcery, dual cast, put the top 6 cards of your library into your grave, cast an instant/sorcery from your grave at random, exile ~

-Harvest Ritual (being green hurt it)
Spoiler:
2G sorcery, sac a land and add RRRRR to your mana pool

Considering

Spoiler:
-Clueless Action
Spoiler:
1RR Instant, exile the top two cards of your library, you may play them this turn. Copy any instants or sorceries cast this way.

-An additional Tradewinds
-An additional Epiphany
-Jungle Utopia (UG tapdual)

Sun, 2015-10-11 05:48
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Note, VEB, Repel, and Storm are not legal in this format (despite what the plug-in says).

Also, this really gets on my nerves. Is Reform really that confusing? No one ever realizes that it can only get things with an equal or lesser CMC, and that it is only sorcery speed.

That said, I feel like as far as storm variants go, full-blown Miraculous Epiphany Burn is the path you want to be travelling. Ritual into Epiphany and chain it into rituals and burn spells. I'll be testing with a non-Epiphany storm deck based around actual Pyroflare and Grapeshot-but-not, too. The problem with Epiphany in a typical storm deck is that if you actually RESOLVE multiple copies of Predetermined Result like you want, you'll probably draw your way into more cards than you deck has when you resolve Epiphany. Which isn't what you want. I could be wrong, though. It is definitely a 4-of in any deck running it, though

Sun, 2015-10-11 06:03
monger
monger's picture

Well, there go three powerful cards. I definitely should have checked with the legal sets before I started building...

Sorry that I forgot the "less than" part of Reform when I did the summaries... unless I'm misunderstanding it on a more fundamental level.

Epiphany was great in testing- more often than not, I essentially won on resolution.

Sun, 2015-10-11 06:20
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I did a crap-ton of testing with Epiphany. It is absolutely a game ending card. It's also the reason I'm suggesting Symphony of Frost and Flame should be banned, since that's way too good at ramping into Epiphany I have yet to lose a game where Epiphany has resolved.

Now, you doing reform cards in this deck shows exactly why VEB block isn't legal. The cards are just all around too powerful

Sun, 2015-10-11 14:44
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Predetermined Result might want to be traded out for more Study the Tradewinds? Admittedly I'm not sure if this is a good idea; it's neat if you're building a deck that works with it (Lerinan Stormcaster makes its base effect free)

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-11 15:38
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I think when I've been working with non-Epiphany storm, I've gone the route of the new Seek Interest, Study the Tradewinds, and Predetermined Results.

Sun, 2015-10-11 15:51
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Is Lerinan Stormcaster as crazy good as I think it is? Imagine copying a Transmute five times off it and drawing into an X spell...

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-11 17:14
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I think in order to get there you have to have quite the large storm count and enough rituals to gather 8 mana at once (at least one of which has to be green). It might be powerful, but not that crazy.

Out of curiosity, do you think Lerinan Archivist might be decent for a control deck? I know it's no Sphinx's Revelation, but still

Sun, 2015-10-11 18:48
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

It seems like it'd support something similar to Jeskai Ascendancy combo-- pack your deck full of one mana cantrips and go wild.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Wed, 2015-10-14 04:30
monger
monger's picture

So I've been trying to make more decks- either ports of existing strategies that could work with this cardpool, or new(ish) decks that rely on interactions between cards. Since there hasn't been a post here for a couple of days, I figured I'd share a couple.

Bogles

Spoiler:
Like before, I'll do a quick and dirty summary of each card.
Also note that I'm basing my Bogle knowledge off several primers, not true experience with the deck.

Decklist

Spoiler:
Bogles (9)
1x Covetous Squirrel
Spoiler:
G creature, hexproof, ETB with a +1/+1 counter, sac a gold token to double the +1/+1 counters on it

4x Eulogy Siren
Spoiler:
G/U creature, hexproof, 1/1

4x Forest Timeseeker
Spoiler:
G creature, hexproof, 1/1

Auras (27)
3x Blessing of the All-Maker

Spoiler:
1WW aura, creature gets +2/+2 and has vigilance and lifelink

4x Chaplain's Mantle
Spoiler:
1W aura, when ETB put a +1/+1 counter on enchanted creature, protection from creatures without +1/+1 counters

4x Enchanter's Boon
Spoiler:
1U aura, creature gets +1/+1 for each enchantment you control and has hexproof

4x Ethereal Armor
Spoiler:
W aura, creature gets +1/+1 for each enchantment you control and has first strike

4x Inner Might
Spoiler:
1G aura, creature gets +1/+1 and has trample

4x Savage Aura
Spoiler:
1G aura, creature gets +3/+0 and can't be blocked by creature with less power

4x Timed Updraft
Spoiler:
U aura, creature gets +1/+1 and has flying

Support (4)
2x Brush Off

Spoiler:
1U sorcery, bounce target creature and draw a card

2x Tol, Master Auramancer
Spoiler:
1WU legendary enchantment creature, hexproof, whenever you cast an aura you may draw a card, auras you control have aura swap WU

Manabase (20)
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
2x Bloodvell Stockpile (W/B tapdual)
2x Jungle Utopia (G/U tapdual)
4x Bastion Sunflats

Spoiler:
enchantment land, tap to add one mana of any color, doesn't untap during your untap step unless you reveal an enchantment card from your hand

1x Refracting Bond
Spoiler:
land, tap to add one mana of any color only for enchantments and their abilties

Choices

Spoiler:
Bogles (9)
1x Covetous Squirrel- scout with slight upside/downside, need to check on that
4x Eulogy Siren- bogle!
4x Forest Timeseeker- scout

Auras (27)
3x Blessing of the All-Maker- essentially the only efficient vigilance-giver, lifelink is nice and the boost is solid
4x Chaplain's Mantle- worse spirit mantle is still a solid card
4x Enchanter's Boon- worse ethereal armor is still a solid card
4x Ethereal Armor- ethereal armor, fantastic
4x Inner Might- okay, with evasion trample matters less, but there are few options at 2 (detect undead (+2/+2 and pro skeletons, zombies, and vampires) or on hell's leash (+1/+0 and deathtouch))
4x Savage Aura- awesome, essentially makes your creature unblockable and gives a large power boost
4x Timed Updraft- more evasion and a small boost, pretty good

Support (4)
2x Brush Off- helps when you're behind or ahead. Originally had Ostracism here, but cut black for consistency
2x Tol, Master Auramancer- very solid, has hexproof herself plus draws you cards and can swap auras at instant speed as a combat trick

Manabase (20)
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
2x Bloodvell Stockpile
2x Jungle Utopia
4x Bastion Sunflats
1x Refracting Bond

Most of the mana base is pretty standard, fetchlands into basics and duals, but I want to note two cards here. First is Refracting Bond, which helps cast enchantments. Second, and much better, is Bastion Sunflats. It's an enchantment land- very relevant with 4x Ethereal Armor and Enchanter's Boon. The drawback is very small as well, as it's both optional (mindgames) or you can just reveal the aura you're going to cast.

What does Bogles lose/gain?

Spoiler:
Lose: Rancor, Daybreak Coronet, and totem armors. Rancor is a cheap, returnable power boost that gives trample to boot. Coronet... is Coronet. A powerful centerpiece of the deck. Totem armors were cheap plus granted some extra protection to your bogle.

Stays: Ethereal Armor and all the Bogles.

Gains: Enchanter's Boon, Savage Aura, and Bastion Sunflats. Boon is a weaker Armor, but even Armor without first strike is strong considering Sunflats. Savage Aura is just incredibly solid, granting psuedounblockable and a power boost. Sunflats fixes mana considerably and adds to Boon and Armor to boot.

Spellbomb Jank

Spoiler:
This is just here because I found it amusing. I saw the Amethyst Shaman and threw the rest of the deck together pretty quickly.

Decklist

Spoiler:
Combo Pieces (7)
4x Amethyst Shaman
Spoiler:
2G creature, 1/1 tap to add GG, untap whenever an artifact ETB under your control

2x Burning Bodies
Spoiler:
1R sorcery, deals 1 damage to target creature/player, gravestorm

1x Lurking Informant
Spoiler:
1U creature, 2/1 sac an artifact to make unblockable until end of turn, (irrelevant damage trigger)

Baubles (33)
1x Divining Rod

Spoiler:
1 artifact, when ETB scry 1, when goes to graveyard draw a card

4x Emerald Spellbomb- for sake of simplicity, all spellbombs are just "1 artifact, 1 + sac to draw a card"
4x Jet Spellbomb
4x Pearl Spellbomb
4x Prophetic Prism
Spoiler:
2 artifact, when ETB draw a card, 1 tap add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool

4x Ruby Spellbomb
4x Sapphire Spellbomb- except this one
Spoiler:
1 artifact, 1 + sac draw a card, G + sac, draw 2 discard 1

4x Scrolls of Thought
Spoiler:
2 artifact, when ETB draw a card, tap + sac another permanent to draw a card

4x Runed Earthvessel
Spoiler:
3 artifact creature, 2/1 sac to draw and get 1

Support (3)
3x Crystalmist Channeler

Spoiler:
G creature, 1/1 tap to add 1, tap + sac an artifact to add two of any color

Manabase (17)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
5x Forest
1x Island
3x Jungle Utopia (UG tapdual)

Choices

Spoiler:
Combo Pieces (7)
4x Amethyst Shaman- the central combo piece, casts as many artifacts as you can draw
2x Burning Bodies- the wincon
1x Lurking Informant- helps get enough gravestorm if you run out of steam

Baubles
1x Divining Rod- doesn't draw on enter, meh
4x Emerald Spellbomb- spellbomb, essentially cycles for 2
4x Jet Spellbomb
4x Pearl Spellbomb
4x Prophetic Prism- draws and fixes
4x Ruby Spellbomb
4x Sapphire Spellbomb- actually has a use
4x Scrolls of Thought- probably the best, draws on enter and sacs a land or tapped artifact for another draw
4x Runed Earthvessel- costs 3, but gives back 1 plus a draw

Support
3x Crystalmist Channeler- sorta iffy on its inclusion, but it helps go off faster and can sac things/generate extra mana in a pinch

Manabase (17)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
5x Forest
1x Island
3x Jungle Utopia (UG tapdual)

Very sparse manabase, since drawing a land once you're comboing off is not good. You can grab a Forest into Channeler into Shaman, or just Jungle Hollow for the first couple turns.

Wed, 2015-10-14 14:04
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

so, uh... Prophetic Prism is a real card, but Emerald Spellbomb isn't Out of curiosity, why does the Prism have the text saying what it is?

Wed, 2015-10-14 20:41
Korakhos
Korakhos's picture

Ok, I've been working on a GW token deck these past few days (though I think I'll have to splash some B or U for card draw), and I'm missing the Fragments of Rath file which seems to have been erased from mediafire. Anywhere I can get the file?

Wed, 2015-10-14 23:27
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Splash black. Spoilers: Lingering Souls is good.

Also, you get to get Eno, Fellmaster of the Grave

Wed, 2015-10-14 22:57
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Also, if anyone's open for a game or two I'll be around

Thu, 2015-10-15 03:59
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Time Hop's Channel the Past is super good at not breaking formats I tried to pull a dredge combo involving milling my deck via Deadgrowth (Linela rare that lets you mill however many cards you feel like) and using Channel the Past to exile and cast Return for Revenge. I'm still working on it, but now I actually have to have 8 mana to pull off that combo

Thu, 2015-10-15 04:26
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Yeaaaah I thought the Narcos in Time Hop were gonna mess the format up. Happy to hear they aren't.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Thu, 2015-10-15 04:32
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Maybe I should note, the Return for Revenge was aimed at an Earthsplitter to make a literally lethal threat. I was testing something similar in block constructed after releasing Linela by using Deadgrowth to mill away everything but the card you need to draw, untap, draw it, and recur Earthsplitter using Relevin Priest, which would then let you flashback Wild Mage's Strike to give it trample

Sun, 2015-10-18 17:51
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

So the next update is going to encompass Ashura, Dabriohm, and Mercadian Tides, right?

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-18 18:58
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

That was the idea, yep. If Mercadian Tides ends up being fully released before Ashura, I'll probably add in Ashura in a smaller update

Sun, 2015-10-18 21:08
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

Hopefully Preasti will be done as well...

Check out my updated set hub.

Sun, 2015-10-18 21:33
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Yeah, then we can have MSE Standard!

(Personally I wish Vis: Plane of Death was complete for OTHER REASONS.)

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-18 22:53
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

You mean aside from a hanging story on that plane?

Mon, 2015-10-19 04:44
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
Liz the Goddess's picture

I want to finish Ante Up just so it can be placed into this and absolutely RUIN it Big smile.

Ante Up: BANNED EVERYWHERE FOR BEING RIDICULOUS.

I've also NEVER played any MSE games ever and have no idea how to. I'd love to sometime.

I like bears.

Mon, 2015-10-19 05:06
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I do feel like Ante Up would be a standalone set usable in a more legacy-like format For similar power reasons, Volaria block isn't MSE Modern legal.

Mon, 2015-10-19 05:09
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
Liz the Goddess's picture

Since it's based off of Conspiracy, that was totally the plan Stick out your tongue Nonetheless, eventually I will create a set that's good fitting for this kinda stuff.

I like bears.

Mon, 2015-10-19 05:15
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I'm not good with green, so someone is welcome to correct me on this, but it seems like the most common green card in this format will be Lotus Cobra and Birds of Crystalmist. I'm not seeing a good cheap creature except for maybe the triple-green guy with "Lurking".

Mon, 2015-10-19 16:37
Decembra
Decembra's picture

Time Hope Nissa looks like the perfect fit for a Green mana symbolWhite mana symbol grindy-pod deck

Mon, 2015-10-19 17:12
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Okay, so I downloaded the plugin after all for easier consultation. I'm not sure where to go, I was trying Green mana symbolWhite mana symbolBlack mana symbol tokens because Time Hop Sev was fantastic but apparently someone else had the same idea, so I think I'm going to make something zanier if I manage to.

EDIT-I wanted to go Echo of Fire combo, but then I remembered that's banned
Did one of you make the sound file we hear at the beginning, or did you take it from somewhere else?

Mon, 2015-10-19 18:04
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

That's from the regular Magic plugin. I haven't touched the sounds

Also, by "Echo of Fire" I assume you mean "the Red/white mana symbol one"?

Mon, 2015-10-19 18:07
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Yeah, I didn't remember the name correctly probably, but that's the one, the one which deals damage to all players. For now I'm going for a pretty generic Green mana symbol deck, I have a few ideas for where it could go but haven't really specialised it yet, there are only 12 cards in it for now and I doubt all of them are going to stay.

Mon, 2015-10-19 18:11
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Yeah, that one's Echo of Intensity.

I feel like White/black mana symbol will be a good color pair considering removal like Ionization and Desolate alongside value cards like Lingering Souls (reprinted in Time Hop!)

Mon, 2015-10-19 18:51
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Yeah, it got some good removal, I'd say.
Is Fires of Valla supposed not to be legal? It wasn't showing up in the legal sets for MSE Modern. Did I install an outdated version of the plugin, or was that an accident?

Mon, 2015-10-19 18:57
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Let me take a look...

Yeah, I just missed it when adding sets to MSE Modern. That'll be fixed in the next update (Which I'll release once Mercadian Tides is fully released)

Mon, 2015-10-19 19:32
Guitarweeps
Friendly MSE Designer
Guitarweeps's picture

I finally got on lackey Sst so time to make my deck. It is pretty awesome to be able to play our sets!

Check out my updated set hub.

Mon, 2015-10-19 19:36
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

I just finished making my first deck and saved it, but don't really know how to use Lackey. How can I test my deck now?

Mon, 2015-10-19 19:41
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Among the tabs on Lackey there's "Server" where you can connect to the server and see who's online. I typically tend to try to be online if possible. (Also, I can help you a bit more there )
Something to note about Lackey is that right-clicking is key. If something says scry, right click on it and you'll be able to look at the top whatever cards of your library. I'd suggest just messing around, right clicking on things to figure out what's available as far as actions go.

Mon, 2015-10-19 20:47
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

I know that fog isn't very good normally, but do you think that maybe Saving Grace might find a home in a white-based control deck?

Tue, 2015-10-20 17:53
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

Okay so Korakhos and me just played a game. Circa 30 or so turn of token vs token.
As it turns out, we both need more removal. Sev and that one green Wolf card were too good at stalling our game.
I also need way less lands than I thought. Good.
My turn 5 8/8 followed by 16 2/2 turn 6 did not happen at all in 30 or so turns, but almost did on multiple occasions, which is kind of a good sign, I think?

Tue, 2015-10-20 17:59
WindyDelcarlo
Administrator - MSE Add-On Award
WindyDelcarlo's picture

Something I know Korakhos was running was Mob Mentality (which seems really good at killing things in a token deck).

TD's Arrow Rain seems super good in the sideboard against token strategies

Tue, 2015-10-20 18:12
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

How do you get a turn five 8/8 in a token deck? (Or 16 2/2s.)

Mob Mentality is A+ removal.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Tue, 2015-10-20 18:27
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

I was running that thing, too, but it never showed up even though I had four of them.
@jacqui-pup: Consistent land drops, T3 and 4 Investment Strategies and Valien Darya (in the order you get them), T5 Goldenskin Goliath sacrificing gold, T6 tap Valien, and you get 8 2/2s (thought it counted both p and t for some reason before, it showed up way too late even though I had four and went to the graveyard before I could use it).
EDIT-So apparently Mob Mentality never showed up because even though there were supposed to be 4 of those, there were only 2. Well, that's a mystery solved, I guess.

Sat, 2015-10-24 04:45
monger
monger's picture

Hey look it's another inconsistent combo deck.
Actually, it's three versions of the same shell.

By the way, and this relates to Wind's question earlier, I'm putting a short description of the card below it mostly as it relates to the plan of the deck (I don't plan to cast Sunken Runestone, for instance) and writing out custom keywords so people don't have to look them up.

Deadrise Druid (possibly the most consistent)

Spoiler:
Deck
Spoiler:
Main Pieces (14)
3x Channel the Past
Spoiler:
2R sorcery, when it is put into your graveyard from library cast it without paying its mana cost. Exile instant/sorcery from your graveyard and you may cast it until end of turn

3x Deadrise Trap
Spoiler:
5BBB trap sorcery, can pay 4BB if 3 or more creatures were put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn. Return all creatures from your graveyard to the battlefield

4x Greenheart Druid
Spoiler:
G 1/1 creature, when etb reveal cards from top of your library until you reveal a basic land, put it into your hand and the rest into your graveyard

4x Sunken Runestone
Spoiler:
1 artifact, when it is put into your graveyard from library add UBG to your mana pool if you control a forest

Creatures (7)
1x Haknir Death-Brand

Spoiler:
2UU 3/2 legendary creature, other creatures you control have hexproof

2x Narcomoeba
Spoiler:
1U 1/1 creature, flying, when it is put into your graveyard from your library put it onto the battlefield

2x Rage
Spoiler:
4RR 4/4 creature, haste first strike, whenever a creature etb under your control, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn

2x Rolling Shellcreeper
Spoiler:
3GG 4/4 creature, trample, other creatures you control have trample

Protection (11)
3x Advance of the Worthy

Spoiler:
1W instant, creatures you control gain protection from the color of your choice until end of turn, flashback- return a creature you control to its owner's hand

2x Deterrent Will
Spoiler:
1U instant, counter target spell unless its controller pays 1, if you cast another spell this turn counter it instead

3x Hathrik's Conditioning
Spoiler:
B sorcery, name a nonland card then target opponent reveals their hand and discards all cards with that name, flashback- sacrifice a creature

1x Pierce the Depths
Spoiler:
B sorcery, 1B and exile ~ from your graveyard: return target card from your graveyard to your hand if 4 or more cards were put into a graveyard from a library this turn

2x Weight of History
Spoiler:
2B enchantment aura, when it is put into your graveyard from your library put it onto the battlefield, enchant creature and enchanted creature gets -X/-X where X is the number of creature cards in your graveyard

Search (8)
4x Aid of the Dead

Spoiler:
XWB sorcery, put a permanent with CMC X or less from your library onto the battlefield, it gains haste and sacrifice it at end of turn

4x Unending Territory
Spoiler:
XG sorcery, search your library for any number of land cards, put X onto the battlefield tapped, and the rest into your graveyard

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Ravaged Forest (forest subtype, comes in tapped and filters)
2x Bloodvell Stockpile (W/B tapdual)
4x Fungal Marsh (G/B tapdual)


Choices
Spoiler:
Main Pieces (14)
3x Channel the Past
3x Deadrise Trap
4x Greenheart Druid
4x Sunken Runestone

All are key combo pieces, I opted for multiples of Channel and Deadrise just in case.

Creatures (7)
1x Haknir Death-Brand
2x Narcomoeba
2x Rage
2x Rolling Shellcreeper

Rage and Shellcreeper are the big ones here, Death-Brand is useful for protection, Essence (is on the cut list) pumps the team, and Narcomoeba is useful in general

Protection (11)
3x Advance of the Worthy
2x Deterrent Will
3x Hathrik's Conditioning
1x Pierce the Depths
2x Weight of History

Advance and Conditioning negate removal/boardwipes at the cost of creatures (usually Narcomoeba), Will is a counter to a counter, Pierce serves as additional redundancy, and Weight kills (nearly) any creature in the way

Search (8)
4x Aid of the Dead
4x Unending Territory

Each is supposed to either fetch Druid or increase chances- Territory for 1 grabs you a land, letting you cast Aid, as well as removing lands and increasing chances of Druid, while Aid for 3 just lets you go off

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Ravaged Forest
2x Bloodvell Stockpile
4x Fungal Marsh

Fetches thin, which is important, plus we can't run basics so all our lands are tapped.


Strategy
Spoiler:
Start off with the druid combo-
Druid put library into graveyard, including 4x Sunken Runestone, giving you UUUUBBBBGGGG floating.

Setup-
You'll have milled 2x Narcomoeba. If needed (if the opponent has untapped lands), sacrifice them both to Conditionings to net at least one card. Or leave one up for Advance.

Execution-
Next, you'll also have milled Channel the Past, so cast them exiling Deadrise, Deterrent Will, and either another Deadrise or another Deterrent Will. Cast the Deadrise, leaving blue unspent for the Will(s) and possibly more black for the second Deadrise.
You'll get 6 creature returning to the battlefield, meaning 12 Rage triggers. Swing and probably win.

If you don't get the combo T2-3, hopefully you have Aid or Territory in hand and can remove lands and possibly ramp and/or tutor up Druid.

State of the Deck-
Looking over, I feel like I'm running too much protection for the combo. It would be nice to have some more cards that help when I can't land Druid, cheap tutors and such, but it looks like we're lacking in those right now.


Chain Druid

Spoiler:
Deck
Spoiler:
Main Pieces (12)
4x Greenheart Druid
Spoiler:
G 1/1 creature, when etb reveal cards from top of your library until you reveal a basic land, put it into your hand and the rest into your graveyard

4x Parasitic Spores
Spoiler:
1BG enchantment aura, enchant creature + mostly irrelevant ability, when it is put into your graveyard from library you may pay 2BG, if you do return target creature card from your graveyard to your battlefield and attach ~ to it

4x Sunken Runestone
Spoiler:
1 artifact, when it is put into your graveyard from library add UBG to your mana pool if you control a forest

Creatures (14)
4x Carrier of Souls

Spoiler:
4BB 2/3 creature, flying, evoke 3B, when ETB return target creature from your graveyard to the battlefield

2x Lingering Souls
Spoiler:
2W sorcery, get two 1/1 flying spirit tokens, flashback 1B

2x Lorwynian Fieldmage
Spoiler:
2WW 1/1 creature, when ETB return target creature with power 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield

4x Narcomoeba
Spoiler:
1U 1/1 creature, flying, when it is put into your graveyard from your library put it onto the battlefield

2x Rage
Spoiler:
4RR 4/4 creature, haste first strike, whenever a creature etb under your control, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn

Protection (10)
3x Advance of the Worthy

Spoiler:
1W instant, creatures you control gain protection from the color of your choice until end of turn, flashback- return a creature you control to its owner's hand

3x Hathrik's Conditioning
Spoiler:
B sorcery, name a nonland card then target opponent reveals their hand and discards all cards with that name, flashback- sacrifice a creature

2x Pierce the Depths
Spoiler:
B sorcery, 1B and exile ~ from your graveyard: return target card from your graveyard to your hand if 4 or more cards were put into a graveyard from a library this turn

2x Weight of History
Spoiler:
2B enchantment aura, when it is put into your graveyard from your library put it onto the battlefield, enchant creature and enchanted creature gets -X/-X where X is the number of creature cards in your graveyard

Search (6)
4x Aid of the Dead

Spoiler:
XWB sorcery, put a permanent with CMC X or less from your library onto the battlefield, it gains haste and sacrifice it at end of turn

2x Unending Territory
Spoiler:
XG sorcery, search your library for any number of land cards, put X onto the battlefield tapped, and the rest into your graveyard

Land (18)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Ravaged Forest (forest subtype, comes in tapped and filters)
1x Bloodvell Stockpile (W/B tapdual)
4x Fungal Marsh (G/B tapdual)


Choices
Spoiler:
Main Pieces (12)
4x Greenheart Druid
4x Parasitic Spores
4x Sunken Runestone

All are key combo pieces. You need the 4x Spores because you have to stack the triggers.

Creatures (14)
4x Carrier of Souls
2x Lingering Souls
2x Lorwynian Fieldmage
4x Narcomoeba
2x Rage

Carrier and Fieldmage are part of the chain, Souls provides more bodies, Narcomoeba is useful as always, and Rage is the enabler to swing and pump.

Protection (10)
3x Advance of the Worthy
3x Hathrik's Conditioning
2x Pierce the Depths
2x Weight of History

Advance and Conditioning negate removal/boardwipes at the cost of creatures (usually Narcomoeba), Pierce serves as additional redundancy, and Weight kills (nearly) any creature in the way

Search (6)
4x Aid of the Dead
2x Unending Territory

Each is supposed to either fetch Druid or increase chances- Territory for 1 grabs you a land, letting you cast Aid, as well as removing lands and increasing chances of Druid, while Aid for 3 just lets you go off

Land (18)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Ravaged Forest
1x Bloodvell Stockpile
4x Fungal Marsh

Fetches thin, which is important, plus we can't run basics so all our lands are tapped.


Strategy
Spoiler:
Start off with the druid combo-
Druid put library into graveyard, including 4x Sunken Runestone, giving you UUUUBBBBGGGG floating.

Setup-
You will have milled the 4x Narcomoebas, so put those onto the battlefield.
Ideally, you will have milled a Spores before 2x Runestones, giving you the mana to pay for the surface trigger. If you do, return Carrier or Fieldmage to the battlefield. If not, use Conditioning/Souls before exiling Pierce to return and cast Carrier.

Execution-
Resolve the reanimator's ETB trigger, bringing back another reanimator, and so on until you bring back Rage. Once all the abilities have resolved, if you used Spores, this will be your first chance to Conditioning/Souls. Once you've done that, swing with your 7-~15 buffed creatures and probably win.

If you don't get the combo T2-3, hopefully you have Aid or Territory in hand and can remove lands and possibly ramp and/or tutor up Druid.

State of the Deck-
This was the first version and is mostly included out of nostalgia Winking smiley The original version had Mariessa, Bastion Guardian returning Phenomenon of War to end the chain, but running 2x of each took up a space. Even now, the deck is clunky since it functions best if a Spores happens to be above 2x Runestone. To be honest, I should just cut the Spores and focus on Piece into Carrier, so the deck can run more support cards (Channel + Will) and search cards it didn't have space for.


Hunt Druid

Spoiler:
Deck
Spoiler:
Pieces (17)
4x Channel the Past
Spoiler:
2R sorcery, when it is put into your graveyard from library cast it without paying its mana cost. Exile instant/sorcery from your graveyard and you may cast it until end of turn

3x Divine Channeling
Spoiler:
3G sorcery, add WUBRG to your mana pool

2x Hysterical Hunt
Spoiler:
4R instant, put a 1/1 human token onto the battlefield for each instant/sorcery in your graveyard, creatures gain haste until end of turn and must attack this turn if able

4x Greenheart Druid
Spoiler:
G 1/1 creature, when etb reveal cards from top of your library until you reveal a basic land, put it into your hand and the rest into your graveyard

4x Sunken Runestone
Spoiler:
1 artifact, when it is put into your graveyard from library add UBG to your mana pool if you control a forest

Creatures (4)
4x Lingering Souls

Spoiler:
2W sorcery, get two 1/1 flying spirit tokens, flashback 1B

Protection (11)
3x Advance of the Worthy

Spoiler:
1W instant, creatures you control gain protection from the color of your choice until end of turn, flashback- return a creature you control to its owner's hand

3x Deterrent Will
Spoiler:
1U instant, counter target spell unless its controller pays 1, if you cast another spell this turn counter it instead

3x Hathrik's Conditioning
Spoiler:
B sorcery, name a nonland card then target opponent reveals their hand and discards all cards with that name, flashback- sacrifice a creature

2x Pierce the Depths
Spoiler:
B sorcery, 1B and exile ~ from your graveyard: return target card from your graveyard to your hand if 4 or more cards were put into a graveyard from a library this turn

Search (8)
4x Aid of the Dead

Spoiler:
XWB sorcery, put a permanent with CMC X or less from your library onto the battlefield, it gains haste and sacrifice it at end of turn

4x Unending Territory
Spoiler:
XG sorcery, search your library for any number of land cards, put X onto the battlefield tapped, and the rest into your graveyard

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Ravaged Forest (forest subtype, comes in tapped and filters)
1x Bloodvell Stockpile (W/B tapdual)
4x Fungal Marsh (G/B tapdual)


Choices
Spoiler:
Pieces (17)
4x Channel the Past
3x Divine Channeling
2x Hysterical Hunt
4x Greenheart Druid
4x Sunken Runestone

They're all key combo pieces.

Creatures (4)
4x Lingering Souls

Provides extra bodies to sac in a pinch as well as a sorcery for Hunt (if you don't flash it back)

Protection (14)
3x Advance of the Worthy
3x Deterrent Will
3x Hathrik's Conditioning
2x Pierce the Depths

Advance and Conditioning negate removal/boardwipes at the cost of creatures (usually Narcomoeba), Will is a counter to a counter, and Pierce serves as additional redundancy.

Search (8)
4x Aid of the Dead
4x Unending Territory

Each is supposed to either fetch Druid or increase chances- Territory for 1 grabs you a land, letting you cast Aid, as well as removing lands and increasing chances of Druid, while Aid for 3 just lets you go off

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Ravaged Forest
1x Bloodvell Stockpile
4x Fungal Marsh

Fetches thin, which is important, plus we can't run basics so all our lands are tapped.


Strategy
Spoiler:
Start off with the druid combo-
Druid put library into graveyard, including 4x Sunken Runestone, giving you UUUUBBBBGGGG floating.

Setup-
No Narcomoebas milled Shocked
You will, however, have milled the 4x Channel, so go ahead and exile a Channeling, Hunt, and Will. With the fourth choose something, probably another Will. You don't have to cast them right away, so flash back Souls/Conditioning if you want to (but leave mana up for Will)

Execution-
Cast Channeling, using the mana produced to cast Hunt while still leaving mana up for Will(s). You should get around 21 tokens (and that's a conservative estimate, relying on you casting 2x Souls into double Conditioning) plus any Spirit tokens you didn't sacrifice. Swing and probably win.

If you don't get the combo T2-3, hopefully you have Aid or Territory in hand and can remove lands and possibly ramp and/or tutor up Druid.

State of the Deck-
This version (the second) turned out pretty well, but 1/1 are more easily blocked and you have to plan your setup based on if your opponent has any blockers. Plus having to pay mana for Souls versus Narcomoeba can hurt sometimes.


I have no idea if these will be viable (although I'm going to try with Deadrise Druid) but they were fun to build.

To give yet another summary- the combo itself is very solid, with lots of protection, but suffers from inconsistency in needing one specific card and having few ways to find it (plus it's weak to grave hate if that is/becomes a thing).

Sat, 2015-10-24 21:26
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

We're gonna need to ban that guy, won't we.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-25 01:48
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Iunno, turn one

Quote:
Druid put library into graveyard, giving you UUUUBBBBGGGG floating.
Seems a lot more abusive than an X spells that rips lands.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sun, 2015-10-25 02:58
Cajun
Cajun's picture

Territory doesn't need to rip the lands, the Druid only hits basics and those lists have no basics.

Cajun's Explorations
Planeswalker Template Overhaul
fluffyDeathbringer wrote:
I dunno, Cajun has a habit of doing Dubiously Working new rules stuff

Sun, 2015-10-25 03:05
Liz the Goddess
Moderator
Liz the Goddess's picture

Always gotta be super extra careful when you ban cards. We don't want another Dingus Egg situation, do we? (That card was banned when land destruction decks were too powerful early on in the game. I think they might have possibly banned the wrong card.)

I for one can't really help. Amateur designer, not an amateur developer. I'm TERRIBLE at power levels!

I like bears.

Sun, 2015-10-25 15:08
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Unending Territory will probably need to get banned for other reasons.

It's worth noting that as is it's basically strictly better than Rampant Growth.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater

Sun, 2015-10-25 16:26
Neottolemo
Neottolemo's picture

I'm going to say the Runestone and Channel the Past appear to be the problematic cards here.

Anyway, I reworked my Green mana symbolWhite mana symbol tokens thing and made two more decks-a mono-Blue mana symbol one and a Black mana symbolGreen mana symbol one-but haven't tested them yet.

Sun, 2015-10-25 17:17
jacqui-pup
Featured Set Editor - Best Set of 2015 - Community Award
jacqui-pup's picture

Neo, I'd be up for playing a match with you online if you're game.

[center]"It's exciting to create something that demonstrates how clever you are, that you pushed in a direction that players didn't anticipate. The problem is that the point of game design isn't to be clever, it's to create a great game." --Mark Rosewater